To Buy or not to buy - that is the question

Not bought an Enfield for 2 months and getting withdrawl symptoms.

Looking at getting one of the following :
L39
L42
No8
Long Lee

Discounted the L42 on the grounds of available funds.

So that leaves :
a)L39s seem 10 a penny (well easy to find, not necessarily cheap)
b) No8s seem relatively uncommon (but I know a dealer who has 3 at the moment)
c) Long Lee.

All three of the above are round-about the same sort of pricing with the LL being the lowest.

Which of the three is likely to be the best investment (they will be shot but probably only 50-100 rounds per year. I just want to 'stroke' & nuture it).
Which would fit in best with the current family
Lithgow / FR'd India No1 Mk3*,
Ishapore No2 Mk4*,
Savage No4 Mk1*,
Savage No4 Shotgun,
BSA No4T,
BSA No5 Mk1,
BSA No7 Mk1,
Enforcer

I know enough about No8s and L39s to judge the value but I am an ignoramus when it comes to anything pre-SMLE.

Would welcome comments from 'those that know' on the following :
(If anyone in the UK could throw in a ball park price it would help).

Dealer states 'all original' LSA Long Lee Mk1*

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SCF00092-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SCF00102-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SCF00114-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SCF00043-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...30925831-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../lee1_21-1.jpg

Get that LSA Long Lee.
-----krinko

LSA Long Lee- ESPECIALLY if it's got a good bore. That's the tough part.

If I want to get the dealer to check if the 'numbers are matching' (on the LL) where would it be marked ?

Barrel ?
Bolt ?
Action ?

It doesnt appear to have the front (trigger guard) loop for the magazine 'chain', or indeed the chain, I was under the impression LL's have these ?
Is it a 'mod' or is it missing ?

Alan, I looked at some pictures of L-Es of the era and at Skinnerton V.1. There doesn't seem anything concrete as some rifles and magazines are missing loops. I would discount it as a deal breaker and select it as the Queen Mother of your collection.

Brad

Alan, my MLE Mk I has serial numbers on bolt and right side of receiver ring (not the rear side wall of the receiver where yours is numbered), and on the right of the barrel just fore of the receiver ring.
As regards negotiating with the dealer:
1. A good bore is hard to find in a miltary-marked MLE. Most of the MLEs I see in use at the range are commercial (private purchase) rifles.
2. What is the date on your rifle? Obviously pre-1902 preferable (Boer War usage).
3. Any unit designations on the buttplate tang?
4. The bolt dust cover has a couple of holes drilled in it which should not be there.
5. Need some better pics, but from what I can see, the nocks form has the BSA emblem. The military barrel would not have a BSA emblem, but the letter E (Enfield rifling). If a BSA emblem, this means the rifle was re-barrelled with a commercial BSA barrel, e.g. in South Africa in the 1930s. That would be a plus as regards shooting the rifle, but would bring the price down.
I would estimate around £650 - £750 for the rifle if the bore was very good.

I think this rifle might be from South Africa... partly because of the re-barrel (??), partly because the extra serial number would fit witha SA Weapons Register number, and partly because I wonder if there are some vague markings on the receiver ring seen in pic 5 which might be the South African U+broad arrow or U+diamond (?). If you can get some good-quality pictures of the receiver, nocks form, barrel under the top handguard, butt socket, and buttplate tang, I would be able to tell you more about this rifle.

I'd go with the Long Lee! I've a BSA Mk I* that has matching numbers on the bolt handle, receiver, barrel, top underside of rear sight ladder and bottom flat of bolt sear. The buttplate is marked with the rack number of 818, the date of 1901 (boer War), N.Z., and a capital S. on the tang. There is a matching S. at the bottom of the butt socket underneath BSA Co 1900 Mk I*. I don't know what the S. stands for. Suffolk Regiment? The bore is excellent and the wood undamaged and unsanded. The butt compartment has the correct round bottom Mk III oiler that was issued between 1899 and 1906 and the brass pull through and cord. I Gladly paid $1,150.00 for it and was VERY happy to do so. I considered it worth far more and I believe it is. There are other Mk I*'s that have been on Gunbroker lately that've gone for less, but they've had the stock altered by having wood removed from the Volley Sight area, Volley Sights missing etc. One Mk I that had been converted to take Charger clips but still had the original Mk I rear sight and front sight (thus not a complete CLLE), recently sold for $2,010.00 . I paid $1,400.00 & $1,500.00 for my two CLLE's that were fully converted at V.S.M. in 1910 and 1909. I considered them well worth the price paid. Simply put, the available Long Lee rifles, when complete and undamaged, are getting harder to find, while those wanting them are increasing in number. They just ain't making them anymore. Yes, the other rifles are also not being made anymore, but the Long Lee's get noticed more when they're carried into a gun show. You can't go any distance before someone will stop you and ask if they can look at them. Your final selection will be based upon what YOU want though, not what others want. What do YOU like most? No decision on your part will be wrong as long as it's what YOU want.

Alan,

Have to agree with the others regarding the Long Lee plus i know the dealer who has this and have spoken to him a few times and would give the thumbs up for this, but it all depends on the barrel, (this is "not" the pinned one i shown you at Newark) !!!!!

Just remember a replacement barrel would be as rare as rocking horse s**t even the Lithgow replacements. (unless you know a freindly RFD who could make one)

Henry Krank was knocking rifles out at around £650 would say have a look at some of his to compare.

One thing you will find with Pre SMLE and SMLE is the build quality, think this goes with any rifle built around that period, you have to consider the machinery the parts were made on and the craftmanship what went into the final build, compared to todays standards, they are works of art.

A No4 variant compared with a Pre SMLE or SMLE, Give me the Pre SMLE or SMLE any day.

Slightly off the subject but the SMLE bayonets can become more adictive than most.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF2808-1.jpg
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Buy the Long Lee, I just got a 1897 complete and original and in very good condition. I will NEVER shoot it just admire it. Now looking for a period bayonet.

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Originally Posted by enfield303t

Buy the Long Lee, I just got a 1897 complete and original and in very good condition. I will NEVER shoot it just admire it. Now looking for a period bayonet.

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enfield303t,

Dont think you will have a problem finding a bayonet, some nice examples out there at a very resonable price.

Just to throw a curved ball in -
How about a No1 MkV from a dealer who is trustworth and knows his Enfields and describes it as "immaculate and in original condition".
Considerably more expensive than the long lee (almost 2x the price) but its not all about the cost.

Uniqueness
Value for money
Collectability
Investment
Usable

Appreciate all the comments on the LL but can only have one more weapon on my licence so I need to make sure its the 'right one'.
The only way to get any more would be to sell something else - I guess it would have to be the 'excellent / immaculate condition' Savage No4,

The No1, The Enforcer, The No5, The No7 & The No4T are here to stay.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

Just to throw a curved ball in -
How about a No1 MkV from a dealer who is trustworth and knows his Enfields and describes it as "immaculate and in original condition".
Considerably more expensive than the long lee (almost 2x the price) but its not all about the cost.

Uniqueness
Value for money
Collectability
Investment
Usable

Appreciate all the comments on the LL but can only have one more weapon on my licence so I need to make sure its the 'right one'.
The only way to get any more would be to sell something else - I guess it would have to be the 'excellent / immaculate condition' Savage No4,

The No1, The Enforcer, The No5, The No7 & The No4T are here to stay.

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Alan now you really have thrown a monkey wrench into the works. A very tough decision and even more complicated that you are only allowed one more gun. I never knew you also had that rule in England. Hard to believe how draconian that law is but you never know unless things change here in Canada we may face something like that someday. Good luck on your choice and keep us informed.:thup:

I personally prefer the look of the SMLE and think every collection should have a No.1 MkV (I found one at the start of this year).

1922 and particularly 1923 dates seem to be more scarce than the 1924 dated ones, but only 20,000 odd manufactured in total...

If the dealer is who I think it is - highly recommended!

All the best,

Mike

Hi Enfield .303T. Draconian just isn't the half of it. After last weeks episode, people are already champing at the bit to get things tightened up even MORE.

I see one newspaper telling us that the deranged assassin was armed with a powerful sniper rifle (it was a .22 with a scope) and an automatic shotgun - that was akin to a machine gun no less.......

Watch this space...................

Quote:

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Originally Posted by enfield303t

Alan now you really have thrown a monkey wrench into the works. A very tough decision and even more complicated that you are only allowed one more gun. I never knew you also had that rule in England. Hard to believe how draconian that law is but you never know unless things change here in Canada we may face something like that someday. Good luck on your choice and keep us informed.:thup:

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Legally speaking there is probably 'no limit' but it does get increasingly difficult to obtain permission to purchase additional weapons.
Remember in the UK, every time we want to buy a firearm we must apply to the Police for permission, send off our licenec and have a 'permission to purchase' (slot) added, once you have filled that 'slot' you will need to apply again for the next one.

Firstly we must 'justify' every weapon, the typical question from the Police is 'why do you need (not want - need) another 303"
Secondly once you get above (about) 10 firearms the Police want you to have a burglar alarm linked directly to the Police Station.
Each regional Police authority interperates the rules slightly differently but basically it gets very hard to get more than 7 or 8 rifles.

I already have 3 gun cabinets ( 1 for rifles, 1 for shotguns and one for ammunition) and really no more room for any more.

I have 5 shotguns (including a No4 in 410 calibre) + 5 full bore Enfields + a .22rf Enfield and one available slot for a 7.62 / .303, that will make 12 firearms, so I'd be 'pushing it' to try for another one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Hi Enfield .303T. Draconian just isn't the half of it. After last weeks episode, people are already champing at the bit to get things tightened up even MORE.

I see one newspaper telling us that the deranged assassin was armed with a powerful sniper rifle (it was a .22 with a scope) and an automatic shotgun - that was akin to a machine gun no less.......

Watch this space...................

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You know Peter I didn't want to bring that subject up but I just had a email from a friend and a United Nations survery shows the UK has over 4 times the violent crime rate of the USA. Uk violent crime is 2034/100,000 residents and the USA is less than 500/100,000. Here In Canada our figure is 935/100,000 and our gun laws are much stricter than in the USA. Your gun laws have done nothing to prevent any type of crime and I was very surprised to see those statistics. I might be wrong but here in Canada gun crime 98% of the time is committed by illegally owned guns and not legally registered firearms. Go figure we have spent somewhere around 2 BILLION dollars and have solved NOTHING. I have sent the survey results to Badger asking him to forward it to you. Most people in the world always talk of the crime in the USA and compared to them the UK is totally out of control.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

Just to throw a curved ball in -
How about a No1 MkV from a dealer who is trustworth and knows his Enfields and describes it as "immaculate and in original condition".
Considerably more expensive than the long lee (almost 2x the price) but its not all about the cost.

Uniqueness
Value for money
Collectability
Investment
Usable

Appreciate all the comments on the LL but can only have one more weapon on my licence so I need to make sure its the 'right one'.
The only way to get any more would be to sell something else - I guess it would have to be the 'excellent / immaculate condition' Savage No4,

The No1, The Enforcer, The No5, The No7 & The No4T are here to stay.

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Go for the No 1 MkV,

Try to get a few collectors slots on your ticket you could put this on and shift your No4 T on , if it is original then price not bad, a few pointers to look for: Original fore end and rest of the woodwork, original correct sight, correct mag cut off "no hole" , the safety has a V on.

A few pics would go down well.

Alan,
The limit on most peoples' FAC slots, before one needs a strong room and a monitored alarm, is around 12-15 guns - so I reckon you are in very familiar territory. I think the police's main concern is for security. You might try taking your collection into the obsolete calibres; I have more obsolete than on-ticket. In fact, the larger the overall collection, the better, or so the police have told me - it reassures them that they can seriously consider you as having "good reason to possess" as a shooter/collector. Obviously, no target shooter uses as many as 12 different guns, so the collecting/studying aspect is important to demonstrate to them.

Hi Alan

To follow on from Rob, I'm just renewing my FAC (nice timing after this week!)and applying for another 5 'authorities' for .303 calibre. With 10 firearms already, my local constabulary were prepared to let me have another 2 before they want me to install an intruder alarm. They also recommend multi gun cabinets to 'split the risk'.

You are very knowledgeable on the subject, so I don't see why you couldn't qualify as a 'collector'. I pursuaded my local constabulary to give me that status last year (when asking for my 4th Lee Enfield), citing the associations I had joined, the reference books I had accumulated on the subject and participation in forums, such as this.

If you can accommodate an alarm and squeeze in an extra cabinet (some put them in the attic) - go for it!

Mike

I've got one seven gun cabinet and an ammo cabinet and I'd really struggle to find a space to get another one in for a variety of reasons. I've got on 7.62 slot left on my fac and I've got a gun lined up for it - and I wouldn't be that optimistic about convincing my local firearms officer about how I 'need' another one.
On the issue of collector's certificates - does anyone here have both? Ie a fac AND collector's? Do they shoot guns off both? I am a major military history buff and would be confident of convincing them of my interest in this, but I've never come across a collecting shooter as yet, and would like to hear of other people's experiences.

Oh and Alan - I'd got for the no1 mk5 - I love the smle and I reckon every enfield shooter should have at least one! (mind you, I love my long lee .22 conversion too...) In view of our nation's history a good wwI dated n1mk 3 or 3* would be my choice though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PrinzEugen

Oh and Alan - I'd got for the no1 mk5 - I love the smle and I reckon every enfield shooter should have at least one! (mind you, I love my long lee .22 conversion too...) In view of our nation's history a good wwI dated n1mk 3 or 3* would be my choice though.

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I already have a No1 Mk3* (Lithgow - date unknown) that was Fr'd in India in '47.
Agree -there is something about SMLE's that want you to 'hug them'
(Sentimental old fool !!)

PrinzEugen,

I know a few with collectors slots on there tickets and are keen shooters, the basis on the collectors slot is to own something that has an historic importance, (cant remember off hand the full criteria) ammo is limited to so many rounds a year for demonstration purpose etc.

One thing regarding this is, if there was a sudden ban on various weapons those held on a collectors slot would be reasonably safe, as the purpose for this was to collect and not to use.

I know a member in our club who has most of his Enfields on collectors slots two of them include a No4 T and an L42.

Another member mentioned the obsolete calibre route, i started collecting Martini Henry,s recently, and intend to collect obsolete and antique rifles going back to the Crimea.

(wife doesnt know about these intensions but she was quite happy to see me get back into motorbikes as she quoted " maybe the bikes will get you off war films and guns")

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

Another member mentioned the obsolete calibre route, i started collecting Martini Henry,s recently, and intend to collect obsolete and antique rifles going back to the Crimea.

(wife doesnt know about these intensions but she was quite happy to see me get back into motorbikes as she quoted " maybe the bikes will get you off war films and guns")

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Ha - your wife doesn't understand men and their 'collecting' instincts does she? You don't lose interest in what you liked before, you just add another expensive obsession to the list! ;)

Thanks for the collectors insight. I'd thought about obsolete Martini Henrys (not needing to be on a FAC or collector's) but I would probably want to shoot it, which, as I understand it, would then mean putting it onto the FAC.