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Hi,
I think I know my way around the basic Bren receiver and barrel types, but I'm a bit hazier on butt slides. I believe there were Mk1 and Mk2 types; were there Mk3 or Mk4 types? I'm also curious to know whether there are manufacturer variations within the basic types?
Many thanks,
Mark
Great question Peregrine and it's going to get the grey matter stirring for the Bren fiends out there BUT.......... so far as the REME technical data and parts lists are concerned, there are 3 types
The Mk1 is the original, full length of 21 3/4" long measured from the butt seating to the front. The identifying feature is the small protrusion at the front left hand end that was to act as a bar to incorrect assembly of the gun
However, the wise and more knowledgeable will now hopefully come in and mention the post August 1940 simplifications that took place. For example, I believe the rear scaloped machining close to the butt socket area was also simplified..................
The Mk2 is SIMILAR to the Mk1 in profile but the front end is cut short by 1.5" or so and ends just in front of the mounting pin hole. Also, the pistol grip is now secured by a standard BSF bolt instead of the Mk1 type hollowed (?) grip screw (that was initially designed to hold an oil bottle)
Once again, hopefully, some of the more knowledgeable will be able to come in and identify the variations and hopefully, identify the Candian versions
The Mk3 butt slide followed the Mk1 pistol grip style, with hollowed pistol grip format but the shortness of the Mk2 type and the vertical side frames reduced in depth by about 3/8" or so.
Confused yet...............?
The Mk4 was a Mk2, lightened/converted to Mk3 lightweight spec. These were not adopted in any numbers but they have turned up occasionally. I understand that some of the ex Indian Army Brens that are available have these 'Mk4' butt slides fitted. While the Mk4 Bren didn't feature in our order of battle, they did feature in the Indian Ordnance parts lists as Mk4 guns.
Phew.......... Those are the basic variants Peregrine that you probably knew/understood. Can you shed and more light on this interesting subject KG, Brit P and ZGB among others
Just a few more bits for you
The early Enfield Mk1 lower (To somewhere in the late E serial range) was as Peter described, intricately machined around the trigger assy axis pin heads and ends (Curvy), and It was also scalloped at the rear.
The Enfield Mk1 (Later) lower was simpler in the area around the trigger assy axis pin heads and ends (Squared). It wasn’t scalloped at the rear. (Began around the early F serial range)
The Daimler/Monotype Mk2 was shorter (As mentioned by Peter), had the simpler squared trigger assy area but did have the scalloped portion at the rear*.
The Inglis Mk2 was much like the later Enfield Mk1 lower but was shorter like the Daimler/ monotype lower.
The Lithgow lower was Square in the trigger area like the later Mk1 type but was scalloped at the rear like the earlier Mk1 type.
The early Inglis mk1 was the same as the early Enfield Mk1 type with the addition of (I think) a steel batch number and acceptance stamps at the front end (Upto M5000 ISH).
The later Inglis Mk1(M) was the same as the later Enfield type with the addition of the steel batch number and acceptance stamps at the front end.
*I’m unsure if later mk2 monotype guns had a Inglis mk2 type lower or stayed with the scalloped mk2 type.
That's VERY intersting B-P. Maybe the camera maestro KG could show us in photographic form
I have seen a lithgow MK1 gun No 24 i think it was. With matching lower that had the same intricate machining around the trigger axis pin as the early enfields had.There must have been a rapid change to the profile of this area same as the later MK1 slides because mine is No124 with matching lower that is simplified.
Where is camera maestro KG when we need him? I don't think it took long for Lithgow to incorporate most, if not all, of the simplifications to their Mk1 Bren production
Very intresting, I have A123 and A128 and they also have the simplified lowers. I've some pics somwhere of a Early Lithgow, I think its A3, I'll see what type of lower it has. Have you also noticed the correct early Lithgow bipods have a slightly larger hole in the feet and the radius of the flat portion (rear of foot and on the inside of the gun) is much larger than the Enfield and Inglis types?Quote:
Originally Posted by ZGB
That's strange that you should mention the diameter of the hole in the bipod feet because I always remembered that in Australia, we could push spent .303" cases iunto the holes to try to help prevent the feet moving during burst fire whereas in the UK, the shell case wouldn't seem to fit......
That would be about right Peter as the difference in diameter is very small, I only noticed as Its noticeable when next to a Enfield/Inglis Mk1 bipod. I've not seen many of the Early Lithgow type, probably less than 10. They must have replaced the Mk1 type with the Aussie version of the Mk3 (For those that havn't seen one, its the Mk1 type bipod with the non adjustable Mk2 type feet) around abouts Ser No A4000 to A7000 as I've a version in the A4000 region that is all matching with the Lithgow Mk1 and a all matching Mk1 upgraded model in the A7000 region. So, they could only really made a max of 7000.
Anyone intrested in Lithgow Barrel production?
My gun 124 unfortunately has been through OZ F.T.R. process like most of them that came from there.So it has a bsa bipod on it at the moment but did manage to get a MK1 barrel for it, MA marked.
Yes. What have you learned about Lithgow barrel production?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit plumber
Cheers,
Mark
Very late arriving at this thread but there were also the MK3 variants culminating in the MK2/3 slide.
ZGB,the Aussie MKI slide with the rounded trigger axis pin machining is A22. I'm waiting for Kerry at Lithgow Small Arms Collection to get back to me to see if he can trace when the change over occured to the simplified square machining.
Will try and do some pics Peter but work is taking all my time lately.
Brit P , I think all the Monotype guns to the end of production (RB serial range) kept with the 'scalloped' rear end.
ATB Kevin.
Sorry this has taken so long
This is a work in progress so with more info, I should be able to pin down production further.
All Lithgow barrels carry individual serial numbers which are separate to the Gun serial number marked on the barrel. As normally found the second or ‘Spare’ barrel was suffixed by the letter ‘S’, Also on these barrels can be found the manufacture date in the format 12’45. I’ve been collating what details I can from these barrels and have come to the following conclusions. As further numbers are passed over I may be able to be a bit more specific.
I have found that the barrel serial numbers as roughly twice the gun serial numbers for the first few years but as further new replacement barrels are required, this becomes less reliable.
It would appear the Mk1 barrel was deffinately in use at least until April 1942, Gun serial number A2500, but deffinatly no later than Feb 1943, Gun serial number A7350.
When Bren production ceased in August 1945 some components were still being produced as spares, but production had slowed dramatically and possibly ceased in late 1945/ Early 46. Sometime in the early 1950s Lithgow started producing the Mk2 Barrel again, the earliest I have observed is Aug 1952 and the latest is March 1954, approx 4000 barrels were produced in this time and judging by the quantity of Lithgow, Enfield and Inglis guns FTR’d in the 1950s programme, there are probably many more outside these date ranges yet to be seen.
I’m still looking at the various carry handle assemblies manufactured by Lithgow, the earliest is identical to the early Enfield pattern with the 1 piece machining, and lightning holes in the collar (rarest), The next is a 1 piece machined item like the earlier pattern but minus the lightening holes, most often encountered on the Mk1 barrel but sometimes found on Mk2 barrels,( possibly recycled from Mk1 scrap barrels). Next came the much simpler type, very much like the Enfield Mk1m/Mk2 type, and then the last version I’ve encountered, a cross between a Mk3 and a Mk2 type. This type is a Mk2 type with a machined curve in the leading edge in the same style as the Mk3, this is the most common type observed and could possibly date from 1945 or more probably, the 1950s FTR programme.
ATB Chris.
Jeeeeeees........, I'd better update the Lithgow barrel info before the book is printed...................
Well, well. I saw one of those a few months ago and wondered what it was. I think I vaguely assumed it was some sort of FTR modification to lighten a Mk2 sleeve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit plumber
Mark
The earliest date i have for the Mk2/3 scalloped handle is on a 12/43 dated barrel s/n A6954 then its common on 44/45 barrels.The change over date from holed to solid handles seems to be between 2/42 - 5/42 can not be more specific with the info i have.
Yes the Korea war might have stepped things up a little bit at Lithgow in 50's with 3 RAR arriving in Sept 50.
The year before 49-50 Lithgow had only made 15 Bren gun attachments and brackets and reconditioned 50 Brens.
Great Thread, better if updated with pics. Help Please. Pics of the different type of mk1 slides please.
This is a link to some mk1 slide pics posted by Brit Plumber
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=60896&page=2
Do all of the mk1 manufacturers looks the same? Two basic styles of slides? Are there more or just these two for all of the manufacturers?
Later 42rocker