Large case reloading, Pack or not

I have 2 large case rifles, a 1876 Martini and 1873 Beaumont. I have been shooting the MH with a 485 Gn cast, with 47 gns of 3031, packing the case with kapock, and a disc to keep all the powder down by the primer pocket. So far so good. When I purchased the Beaumont a couple of weeks ago the shop owner/gun smith advised me against using the packing as he said it would create a shock wave of some type that had the potential to bulge the barrel. He further advised that he had run across a number of rifles where this happened. He recomended that I switch to 5744 as a slow burning alternative and forget the stuffing. How is this problem approached by others on this forum. I am hesitant on filling such a large case with so little powder and sort of having it lay about all over the case, not necessarily by the primer.:confused:

Garra, I have no experince with large volumes cases, although I know some lads who have used trailboss to great success in a variety of applications.

IMR Powder Profiles: Trail Boss is the link

In the movie “Sgt York” the Company is marching to the rear after the battle where Sgt. York captured over 100 German prisoner. At the front of the line while marching along one of the soldiers looks over his shoulder and tells his buddy “Sgt York captured over 100 German prisoners”. His buddy looks back over his shoulder and tells his buddy “Sgt York captured over 200 German prisoners”. By the time this message got the the end of the marching Company the last man in line was told Sgt. York had captured the German Kaiser.

Moral of story, Believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you see. — Mark Twain

Lyman recommends a Dacron wad (pillow and teddy bear stuffing) and they do the testing and shooting "WITH" test equipment.
(Dacron, trademark for a polyester fiber)

Cream of Wheat, kapok, grass clippings and sock fuzz are not recomended.

All the knowledge in the world is written in books and all you have to do is read. ;)

When asking for information in a forum you should remember the starting lines from the TV series "The X Files........................Trust No One"

(Until you verify it in writing from reliable sources)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...032055PM-1.jpg

Loads for the 45-70 in a No.3 Ruger single shot that I used with good results using Dacron pillow stuffing.
(If too much Dacron is used you will see a flaming poof of burning Dacron like flash paper being consumed as it hits the air)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...032757PM-1.jpg

Feed your BPCR rifles with BP, and life is a little less hazardous! The Martini-Henry case is awkward enough with a black powder load. Putting nitro into that huge case is adding an extra challenge.

There are two major worries: 1) Ignition, when the charge is (volumetrically) so small, compared with the case volume, that the powder is lying on the bottom (which is why a filler is almost unavoidable). The general opinion seems to be that it is a good idea to use magnum primers to make sure of powder ignition. As I once had a bad experience with a commercial nitro load for a 45-70, where the primer simply pushed the bullet into the throat without igniting the powder, I go along with that principle.

2) The second worry is the theory of a shock wave caused by igniting a very low charge that fails to drive the bullet out of the case. I confess that in this case, I am only repeating hearsay, according to which in most cases where something went catastrophically bang, the cause was probably a double load (but who likes to admit mistakes?).

The best answer is: load your black powder cases with black powder. That way, you will always have a better than 50% filling (no possibility of double-charging) and will not be worried about overloading a system that is at least 120 years old. Most people use a bit of filler with the M-H case, in the interest of saving their shoulders ( a full case would require about 85 grains of powder, but more than 70 is just painful, without improving accuracy) but the best M-H shooter I know doesn't even bother with that, following the principle of "the fewer variables the better". And cleaning a BPCR rifle is a lot simpler than cleaning a muzzle-loader.

Just to provoke a bit of comment: would you put dragster fuel into a vintage car? No? Then why try the equivalent with a rifle that is much older than any automobile?

Patrick

Patrick Chadwick

The original black powder load for the .303 British was rated at 19 tsi chamber pressure, switching to smokeless powder the first loading for the .303 British was 16 tsi, and this increased over time to 17, 18 and 19 tsi again with the final cordite loading.

SR-4759 powder is a bulky powder designed for reduced loads, it has a large grain size with greatly increases loading density and enhancing uniform velocity.

Below is a .303 case that is over ¾ full of SR-4759 with 20 grains of powder.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6677-1.jpg

From the Number nine Speer reloading manual below.
(See loadings on bottom two rows) ;)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...075400PM-1.jpg

If the .303 British can make the change over from black powder to smokeless powder other cartridges can also take advantage of “smokeless powder”. You just have to know which powder to use, smokeless powder isn't “dragster fuel” when it “burns slower” and creates a more even longer pressure curve than instantaneous burning black powder.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MGP2717a-1.jpg

Patrick, please remember "cheap bastards" are not "stupid bastards" and cheap bastards have MORE fun. :D

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nplinker-1.jpg

NOTE: A stupid bastard is the guy that triple charges his rifle cases with 3x18 grains of 2400 pistol powder, adds Cream of Wheat and the pressure wave kills everyone at the shooting range. :yikes:

(Sorry Patrick, the Devil made me do it)

Use Dacron fiber and don't worry. Kapok doesn't get consumed by the flash the same way Dacron fiber does.

The cover of the Cast bullet book looks real familiar, hate to think I may already have it. I have never done BP loading before, so I am kind of hesitant. Isn't there a powder that is a replacement that fills the case, but is low pressure. Of course that would be too easy. May have to bite the bullet and get started, it sure would make firing these old beauties a bit easier. I am going to look at an old Italian rifle tomorrow, another possible BP user.

thanks all,

There's several black powder substitutes, but the original propellant works VERY well. Run hotter primers, use a home made copper drop tube, SPG lube, and a cardboard wad (waxed is best).

MV variations are less (sometimes in the single digits over a ten shot string!) when BP is used and your loading technique is uniform. Ask what the long range BPCR shooters have done as regards accuracy- it's pretty amazing!
Clean up is really easy, except for the added chore of washing the cases, less likelihood of leading, and it's what the firearm was designed around.

You are going to have to cast your own bullets for these rifles for best results regardless of powder used, so why not not go all the way, it's very little extra trouble once you've sorted out the few extra steps.

Don't worry about ruining your barrel by using BP, after all, the VAST majority of rounds that have been through it were just that, and it survived until now...

Well I checked and I did have the book. Something on Ed's comments with the reloading chart is interesting. The amount of gns of powder using Unique vs 3031 or others. Almost as high as a pressure is attained with a lot less powder percentage wise. They share the Dacron pad, so is the higher pressure just attained because that burns so much faster?

Didn't get the Italian one, but got a Swiss M81 Vetterli instead, another BP rifle.....

Dear Edward,

as interesting and amusing as your contribution is, it seems to be slightly missing the point and may be confusing to the original contributor.

1) The 303 cartridge was one of the many responses to the shock effect of the introduction of the Lebel cartridge with smokeless powder in 1886. As the British had not yet got an acceptable smokeless powder, the loading of the 303 case with black powder was a stopgap measure, and they had to use some tricks to force enough powder in to the case! In other words, the 303 was not designed as a BP cartridge, and your comment "If the .303 British can make the change over from black powder to smokeless powder other cartridges can also take advantage of “smokeless powder” " - is therefore an incorrect interpretation of the historical development.

In the "Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions" it says:
303 case capacity = 55.65 gns of water
577-450 case capacity = 123.20 gns of water
Which means that the 20 gns of powder in the 303 case in your picture would look very meagre in the 577-450 case, which is 2.2 times larger.

Furthermore, the loading on P.234 of the "Cast Bullet Handbook" which you present shows pressures that are specified for the Ruger #1 and #3, but are NOT acceptable for original BP rifles. Loads for original rifles are shown on P.232-234, and have considerably lower pressures.

As to the relative burn rates of BP and nitro powder - it surely depends a lot on the packing density. The 16" sharges for the Iowa class battleships use (used?) a black powder starter charge, as it appears that BP does indeed ignite faster than smokeless under pressure.

Which leads me to the final point, on which I hope you have some info in your capacious store of information. And that is, the mysterious "shock wave" supposedly caused by minimum loads of smokeless powder. Often heard of, but I have never seen any proper documentation, rather some comments to the effect that in most (all?) properly analyzed cases, the cause was erroneous double charging. I suspect there may be a certain mythological content in the shock wave story, and would be grateful if you could dig up any properly researched reports.

Whether or not the cheap gentlemen of doubtful parentage have more fun I cannot say - I leave that to your personal expertise - but it is the stupid ones who worry me!

Patrick

Trail Boss powder, and call their “800” number. Ask them for loading info for your application. They will give you the simple info on how to calculate your start and max load. :thup:

Patrick Chadwick

I have never fired a black powder charge in any firearm in my life, I also never hunted with a bow and arrow, a spear or thrown rocks at game.

I also had a Ruger No.3 in 45-70 and fully understand the three different loadings in the reloading manuals for this cartridge and pressures.

Loading 18 grains of 2400 in a .270 case made me “nervous” and slightly paranoid about double charging cases. This led to many inspections of the filled cases with a flash light and nagging thoughts about too much powder in these cases.

SR-4759 was made specifically for reduced loads and higher loading density and Trail Boss is used as a black powder substitute with a high loading density.

It is impossible to double charge a case with SR-4759 without knowing it when looking inside the case.

In the majority of cartridge cases if SR-4759 is used a filler is not required because of the higher loading density.

My main point here is MORE people should read the front of the reloading manuals and attempt to learn something rather than ask questions in a forums where bad answers can be given out.

The answers I gave here were from these manuals and don't contain rumors or bad advice, this does NOT mean any of the advice given in this posting is bad advice. BUT it does mean reading current up to date reloading manuals will keep you out of trouble.

Right now in a cast bullet forum a person famous for writing about "inherent weakness" here in this forum is handing out reloading information and this person doesn't reload or cast bullets. (He is passing out information he read in other forums and much of it is bad information)

The manuals will not tell you to lube your cartridge cases, fill the cases with Cream of Wheat, sawdust or sock fuzz.

My final point is I don't reload MY cartridge cases and shoot them with internet rumors, I reload my cases from the manuals and even cross check them in case of a printing error. (Such as Sgt. York and the Kaiser) ;) RTFM

BUT I am a cheap bastard especially at going out of business sales.
(don't ask me how many cans I bought of SR-4759)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6679-1.jpg

Unique is a fast burning shotgun powder and reaches peak pressure much faster than rifle powders. Just look at the grains. Those little flat grains burn very fast compaired to the heavier grains of rifle powders.

On the subject of manuals for black powder cartridges, the SPG manual has GREAT instructions on building accurate BP rifle loads. Nothing specific to the calibers under discussion, but due to the nature of the propellant, it will still be quite useful. (Powder weight is not the real concern so much as uniformity and slightly compressing the charge.)

“SPG Lubricants BP Cartridge Reloading Primer” written by Steve Garbe and Mike. Venturino

Black Powder Magazine Slipcover

Most excellent BP bullet lube as well!

BTW Mr. Horton, since you have never fired the systems in discussion w/ the original propellents, well, I think it's time to broaden your knowledge base- It's actually quite fun shooting, and the loading techniques involved reward attention to detail, which you seem to appreciate.

Ask your question on the martini forum. You will get a lot more info there.
I currently shoot a 50-70 rolling block and a MK IV martini.
john

Dear Edward, I am not after your sock fuzz, but I did hope you might have some real information on the "shock wave from minimum loads", rather than hearsay. We all rely on your proven ability to dig up something solid in most cases, instead of the scuttlebutt typically retailed by Mr Inherent Weakness.

Patrick

Well, I'm not sure if my question has been really answered. I am getting conflicting advise to use Dacron, where I have also been contacted to not use it and to use Kaboc instead. One item seems to be consistant and that is the use of either Trail Boss,SR4759 and BP. I have gone through all my reloading books, and the only manual that even lists the affected cartridges is the Cartridges of the World. In most cases BP is recommended and in only 2 of the caes the smokeless of 4198 is the only data presented.

This brings us to a more important point and that is where does one go to find smokeless powder data for obsolete cartridges. It appears that it is not in print as Edward would have us believe, if it is I would like to purchase a copy of said data. The only hope one has is to consult with fellow shooters and gain the required knowledge from their experience. I thought these forums did provide such a venue, but it appears I have been mistaken.

regards,

garra

Lyman recommended Dacron, they did their pressure and ballistic testing with Dacron and did NOT publish any problems with Dacron.

Cream of Wheat and kapok are thicker and denser than Dacron and it is my understanding that Cream of Wheat and Kapok effect chamber pressures and Dacron does not.

You have been contacted and told to use Kapok instead of Dacron.
(do what I say and ignore the manual and the trained people with the pressure measuring equipment) :rolleyes:

If you go to other cast bullet forums you will also have people telling you to grease your cartridge cases when all the manuals and official printed matter tells you not to lube your cases.

I'm telling you this because I spent the last 25 years of my career as a Inspector in Quality Control forcing people to read the manuals and to forget what Joe across the room told them. (Joe can be wrong but the manual is always right)

There are smokeless powders specifically designed to replace black powder such as Trail Boss and the Cowboy action Shooters are using it.

There is word of mouth and there there is what is printed in manuals by trained people with with proper testing equipment.

Now ask yourself WHY the data I cut a pasted from the Lyman manual recommended Dacron and SR-4759.
(the manual predates Trail Boss and more people appear to be using it rather than SR-4759)

The main thing I'm trying to get across to you is manuals do not contain rumors and watered down distorted information, they contain proven tested facts.

You asked about fillers for reduced loads and the Lyman reloading manual said Dacron and they had a reason for recommended it.

Read the reloading manuals (more than one) and then ask questions and make mental notes on who gives the best answers.

FWIW -

Cartridge : .577/450 Sld. Martini Henry
Bullet : .457, 500, LYM LRN 457125
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.200 inch or 81.28 mm
Barrel Length : 30.0 inch or 762.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.

Matching Maximum Pressure: 15000 psi, or 103 MPa

or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 90 %

These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

5 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 30%. These powders have been skipped.

Code:

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time % Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms --------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------- IMR 3031 59.3 54.1 3.51 1626 95.5 15000 3766 2.705 Vihtavuori N135 63.8 56.5 3.66 1607 96.3 15000 3612 2.727 Winchester 748 54.7 57.5 3.73 1607 90.5 15000 3749 2.711 Vihtavuori N150 66.3 61.1 3.96 1596 91.3 15000 3699 2.730 Hodgdon H335 51.0 54.4 3.52 1585 93.0 15000 3539 2.731 IMR 4895 59.0 55.7 3.61 1582 88.4 15000 3615 2.707 Vihtavuori N140 59.8 56.1 3.64 1582 93.7 15000 3500 2.732 Hodgdon H4895 60.1 56.8 3.68 1580 90.7 15000 3554 2.717 Ramshot TAC 54.3 55.6 3.60 1579 89.5 15000 3551 2.736 Hodgdon H322 53.3 50.6 3.28 1578 94.3 15000 3423 2.725 IMR 4320 60.2 57.8 3.75 1574 86.2 15000 3571 2.718 Vihtavuori N530 54.1 53.1 3.44 1571 89.6 15000 3495 2.746 Ramshot X-Terminator 50.2 50.7 3.29 1566 93.9 15000 3375 2.754 Alliant Reloder-12 53.3 53.1 3.44 1564 94.4 15000 3354 2.739 Accurate 2015 52.9 50.0 3.24 1563 96.9 15000 3302 2.794 IMR 4064 60.5 55.8 3.62 1562 86.4 15000 3459 2.741 Alliant Reloder-10x 50.8 46.8 3.03 1561 97.6 15000 3243 2.781 Hodgdon VARGET 59.8 56.5 3.66 1560 85.8 15000 3470 2.733 Vihtavuori N540 59.3 58.6 3.80 1551 87.4 15000 3465 2.770 Vihtavuori N133 56.2 50.2 3.26 1543 96.3 15000 3134 2.750 Vihtavuori N130 51.9 47.4 3.07 1529 97.3 15000 3039 2.784 Hodgdon Benchmark 52.6 50.5 3.28 1525 90.2 15000 3169 2.778 Accurate 2200 47.6 47.2 3.06 1524 91.8 15000 3109 2.774 IMR 4198 48.4 42.3 2.74 1522 98.3 15000 2880 2.740 Vihtavuori N120 47.5 42.4 2.74 1513 100.0 15000 2713 2.784 Accurate 1680 41.2 43.3 2.81 1507 95.3 15000 2922 2.782 Alliant Reloder- 7 43.0 40.6 2.63 1502 100.0 15000 2744 2.889 Winchester 296 34.7 36.3 2.35 1501 99.8 15000 2711 2.838 Hodgdon H4227 42.9 38.4 2.49 1490 99.6 15000 2631 2.774 Hodgdon H4198 46.5 42.6 2.76 1489 93.7 15000 2807 2.776 Accurate 5744 38.9 35.5 2.30 1476 97.9 15000 2663 2.787 IMR 4227 42.3 37.8 2.45 1475 99.2 15000 2578 2.781 Hodgdon H110 35.3 37.0 2.39 1470 100.0 15000 2489 2.855 Hodgdon Lil'Gun 34.7 35.2 2.28 1465 100.0 15000 2339 2.860 Vihtavuori N110 39.0 32.3 2.09 1423 100.0 15000 2113 2.862 Accurate 4100 33.2 33.5 2.17 1420 100.0 15000 2140 2.851 Ramshot Enforcer 31.5 31.3 2.03 1405 100.0 15000 2035 2.873 Alliant 2400 31.1 28.8 1.87 1400 100.0 15000 2010 2.860 Alliant BLUE DOT 32.3 25.7 1.66 1339 100.0 15000 1730 2.891 Vihtavuori 3N38 30.6 24.4 1.58 1293 100.0 15000 1524 2.929 Vihtavuori N105 31.6 24.1 1.56 1292 100.0 15000 1519 2.965