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I had an odd occurrence happen the other day. When I pulled the trigger, I heard the spring go Boing and the rifle didn't fire right away.
I waited for about 3-4 seconds and then the rifle fired. Is this a sticking or broken spring? The striker end looks OK with deep primer strikers.
I only got that condition/sound once that day. I didn't have that before. Strange.
Could be a 'delayed fire' / 'hang fire' of the primer/powder - what ammunition was it ?Quote:
Originally Posted by armabill
Alan's right. I would say hang fire. Typical of that reaction.
Factory ammo- .303 British Prvi Partizan.
I never had that happen before.
Order new firing pin springs and extractor springs they are the two most used and abused springs on the Enfield.
Then dissemble, clean, reclean and inspect your bolt. (did I say make sure the bolt is clean and free of all dried petrified dirt and cosmoline)
Install new springs.
I can't say I've had it happen with newer ammo but anything's possible. The sympton sure sounds right though.
That's good, I thought that my striker spring may have broken.
I fired about 35 rounds that day and I had it happen only once.
Hardened grease and junk in the body of the bolt can slow down the striker. Suggest unscrew the bolt head, and leave the bolt and head in a basin of petrol (gasoline) overnight, to dissolve what's stuck in there; shake out what you can; then re-oil. If the strikes seem light, then try a new spring: Part 36A MAINSPRING - NEW $3.00 from http://www.ssporters.com/parts/ENFIELD1.htm
Before you go to all that trouble and the expense of buying new spring and possibly a stripping tool, just test the weight of the mainspring.
Action fired, spring weights to be between 7 lbs low and 9 lbs high
Action cocked, spring weights to be between 14 lbs low and 16lbs high.
That's what we'd do................
You could rinse it out in petrol and blow it through with an air line but, in my very limited experience with these things, if it only happened with one round, I'd say it was an ammo fault
Yeah, it was only that one round. I heard the spring go boing and heard the striker hit. But fired later. I shot 4 rounds of the Prvi Partizan then the 5th one did it.
The other 30 rounds that I shot before the Prvi Partizan were my reloads which shot perfectly.
I had the bolt head off last night and I could wiggle the striker but I couldn't turn it by hand. I could see the striker take down slots clearly.
I already have the striker removal tool, extra striker and spring, just in case.
It may have been a primer not fully seated. It is odd to have a hang fire with Prvi, but anything is possible.
I thought that it was odd for factory ammo too, that's why I thought maybe it was the spring.
This is what you need :Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Picked up a couple of armourers 'Salter' type spring balances today.
The 'big end' hooks around the trigger and gives you your true trigger-pull figures whilst the small end hooks over the cocking piece and does the same for the striker spring.
Anyway (unashamed 'for sale' plug) - only need one so if anyones is interested drop me a PM.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rTester1-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...Tester21-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rTester3-1.jpg
Alan wrote:
"The 'big end' hooks around the trigger and gives you your true trigger-pull figures whilst the small end hooks over the cocking piece and does the same for the striker spring".
Isn't it the other way around. I'm just a novice here but I could be wrong. Maybe I'm not reading it correctly.
How much for one?
Poorly written -Quote:
Originally Posted by armabill
The long arm (big end) with the roller hooks over the trigger, the 'short' end (small end) with the 'notch' cut into it hooks over the cocking piece.
Yep, those are the little beasts. Still in use today. In fact I used one last Friday to set the 'lift' and fuzee weights in a Vickers.
The trouble is that they go out of calibration too quickly. My old 1937 dated set failed calibration in 2008. That's not what I'd call value for money
With all due respect to Mr. Laidler and Alan de Enfield the average American rebel in Pennsylvanian does not have the British Armourers spring tester.
The last large batch of Enfields that came into this country came from Turkey and these Enfields never had a British Armourer even touch them. On top of this the Turks cannibalized old parts off other Enfields to keep these rifles in service. (No new springs)
Please note when a spring weakens over time the spring can grow in diameter when compressed and rub/drag on the inside of the bolt and this effects lock time. You also do not know if someone stored this rifle cocked sitting for years in a dark closet, and new springs are cheap insurance.
Once per year the Armourers completely stripped the Enfield down for inspection including stripping the bolt. Without stripping and dissembling the bolt you will never know if you have a internal problem or what is needed to fix it.
At a military overhaul depot everything is torn down and inspected and I spent 25 years at this depot inspecting component parts. My youngest Enfield is over 50 years old and I completely strip and inspect all my Enfields that I intend shooting when I get them and replace old worn parts.
A little light reading below for inspecting your Enfield rifle. ;)
1991 No.4 (All Marks) .303 Rifle Manuals (Complete Set) - Military Surplus Collectors Forums
Here's a few pics I put together a while back to try to help some knuckle- draggers down from their trees so they could walk upright... but alas, the evil plasticbeddingcard god clipped my wings so I would fall from view...
There's a few uses for the old spring balance.
1) Trigger pull, first pressure; 3 to 4 lb
second pressure; 5 to 6 lb
2) Mainspring, from fired position; 7 to 9 lb
full cock; 14 to 16 lb
3) Extractor spring; 7 to 9 lb
4) Bolthead retaining spring; 10 to 16 lb
Not pictured, the butt trap door; 2 to 3 lb
Ought not be too hard to fab a new equivalent tool, but seeing the original "in action" is hard to beat!
But who's going to do the semi-annual calibration? (I don't think I can get one in my "official" kit- I'm already four over the limit for precision tools as it is...)
Ed,Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Horton
with all due respect, I think you are really over-exaggerating an issue that doesn't really exist.
Apart from the odd broken No1 extractor spring, I've seen no evidence that Enfield spring properties change over time in a way that is in any way detectable to a shooter. I've never come across a striker spring - even in something as old as a Metford - where you could clearly detect a change in trigger weight and/or striker speed simply by replacing the spring with a new one (and lets not forget that the replacements you advocate are themselves over sixty years old - even, in many cases, older than the OEM items in the rifles..). I've certainly never come across a striker spring that has expanded in diameter to the point where it becomes friction fit in the bolt body. Rifle actions don't deteriorate simply because they've been in Turkey, India, Africa or any other environment - even real bitsas still function if they're clean enough.
Having observed hundreds and hundreds of Enfield shooters, I'd say there is rarely any point in attempting to fine tune an Enfield action - ammo, barrel condition and bedding errors are orders of magnitude more significant (I'll not speculate on what percentage of shooters might actually notice a difference between a 1 moa rifle and a 6 moa rifle....). Encouraging people to go out and buy parts they don't need is simply going to empty the parts pool for future generations of Enfield owners - all those springs, boltheads, extractors, sears, cocking pieces, etc will be dispersed & forgotten in a million tool sheds..
If the striker spring was broken, wouldn't it impede the forward motion of the striker (less force)?
Never mind the hoopla about the springs, it was isolated to one cartridge so carry on firing.
OK, but I'm out of ammo. I can't even locate bullets for the reloads.
Oh, they're restocking so I'll have to wait.
Below, a brand new military firing pin spring (left) and the spring from my Turkish Enfield (right) please notice the the broken tip of the spring which could cause misfires. The broken spring piece had wedged under the spring and was dragging on and scoring the firing pin of my Turkish Enfield.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbox
If this Enfield had been in British or Commonwealth hands I would never have found the bolt in this condition when BRITISH Enfields were inspected yearly by a TRAINED ARMOURER.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6681-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MGP6683a-1.jpg
Please note above the new spring on the right has no rub marks on the outside of the spring, and the used spring has only faint rub marks or missing bluing on the outside of the spring. If the outside of the spring has more bluing worn off it means the spring is dragging and rubbing the inside of the bolt and it should be replaced with a newer and stronger spring. Again, a weak spring will expand when compressed and drag and rub the inside of the bolt and this hurts accuracy.
Now tell me again I'm over-exaggerating an issue that doesn't really exist, when the used spring is much shorter and weaker than the new spring. I have tested thousands and thousands of of military springs and I "DO" know what I'm talking about. ;)
Wolf Springs sells replacement firing pin springs for the Enfield rifle rated at 18, 20, 22, 24 and 28 pound ratings and lock time does effect accuracy.
If my Enfield misfired I wouldn't be in a forum asking questions, my Enfield bolt would be torn down looking for answers and NOT guesses.
Below is for Mr. Laidler
Springs do matter (You can always get more horsepower out of an Enfield rifle) :D
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
From an old post on Jouster.
"Fitting Rifle Bolts" by Peter Laidler 4th / 5th December 2007
Now get the striker spring. It should not be less than 3.4" long. Now let's not fall out about this. If it IS shorter and the rifles fires perfectly, then so far as we were concerned, it's serviceable! But I'll come to a little test afterwards.......
..........And there's something else too. We spoke about the length of the striker spring and I told you not act hastily and reject out of hand one that is shorter because another test is to weigh the operating weight of this spring. And that test is this. With the cocking piece in the fired position, the weight required to move the cocking piece rearwards should be between 7 and 9 pounds. In the cocked position, it should be between 13 and 16 pounds. ..
"Lock-time" is defined as the "time interval between sear release and the firing-pin striking the primer". The basic premise is - a reduction in lock-time will cause your rifle to hit closer to where you held the point of aim when you pulled the trigger. This is because less time passes for human errors to impact the path of the bullet.
The 1903A3 has a locktime of somewhere around 6.5 milliseconds, depending on firing pin spring weight. The Remington 700 long action has a locktime of 3.0 milliseconds, the Remington short action 2.6 milliseconds.
Below from Wolff springs:
"Wolff coil-type replacement rifle and shotgun springs are designed to replace weakened, damaged or broken springs in many popular models. These springs, unless otherwise noted, are ready for immediate installation and require no fitting.
BLITZSCHNELL™ precision speed-lock rifle striker springs for bolt-action rifles are made from the highest quality, high-tensile round section wires, as are all Wolff Springs. Each Blitzschnell striker spring has squared ends and is individually hand ground to provide flat seats, cleaned and oiled for long life and solid performance and require no fitting. Blitzschnell striker springs provide dramatic improvement in lock-time over fatigued and factory springs which can greatly improve accuracy and reliability of bolt-action rifles. Load ratings indicated are with the striker (firing pin) in the cocked position and for rifle actions equipped with standard factory parts and designs. Custom triggers and bolt modifications may change the specified ratings. We also suggest that you check for proper protrusion of the striker end from the bolt face. The optimum protrusion should be about .060" and no more than .065" to prevent primer puncture. Each Blitzschnell striker spring is individually packaged and identified, and is ready for immediate installation and use."
Lock time effects accuracy, a 50 year old + worn firing pin spring that rubs the inside of the bolt will greatly effect accuracy. A new spring decreases lock time and promotes better accuracy.
Ten rounds 50 yards
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...aytarget-1.jpg
5 rounds, 50 yards PH-5C sight
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ngeday21-1.jpg
Go ahead and use your old weak firing pin springs, I'll keep using new springs with faster lock times. Please note only new military Enfield firing pin springs were used, I have yet to test any Wolff springs which are stronger than military. ;)
Alan de Enfield
"It should not be less than 3.4" long. Now let's not fall out about this. If it IS shorter and the rifles fires perfectly, then so far as we were concerned, it's serviceable!"
I'm not looking for just "serviceable!" and enough force to ignite a primer, I'm looking for faster lock times and accuracy. If just going "bang" is good enough for you or anyone else and your not concerned with improving accuracy then go ahead and use these weaker springs.
Well, a target shooter told me just the same thing about lock times. So I fitted Wolf blitsschnel spring, but found the trigger pull and the ease of loading quickly were stiffer, rapid firing with the rifle kept at the shoulder became impossible, my group was no better. Disappointed, I re-fitted the original spring and sold the Wolf spring on ebay. I'd be really interested to know if anyone has been able to improve on the original spring characteristics, personally I doubt it.
????Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Horton
Ed,
With these pictures, are you trying to explain that losing one coil of your striker spring caused your POI to move laterally by about 6 minutes? If so, the group size appears to be about the same and hence rather undermines your theory about accuracy.
If these two pictures are nothing to do with striker springs, why post them?
If you have a good hold & shooting technique, then its perfectly possible to shoot good groups even with click-bang ammo, where the de facto "lock time" (primer, rather than spring) may be half a second or more.....
I didn't loose a coil from my striker spring, the very tip of the spring just slightly longer than 1/16 of an inch broke off and wedged in a coil of the spring and was dragging and cutting into the striker. (Dragging and slowing down the striker)Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbox
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
What I'm really trying to get across is you will not know or find out anything until the bolt has been dissembled and inspected. Below is just one more example of what could be wrong, this striker spring was causing more than a few misfires. The tip of the striker spring broke and finally jammed fast to the striker and locked up tight.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2462-1.jpg
The targets you are referring to were fired one day apart and the only difference was the addition of the PH-5C and moving the group to the left and into the X-ring.
My main point to you Thunderbox and the rest of the British in this forum is very simple. The U.S. does NOT have the strict inspection and proofing requirements and standards that the U.K. has. Our Enfields here in the U.S. are sold as Antiques and Curios and under law are not required to have any inspections done to them before sale.
Below is a extreme case BUT this No.5 Enfield from Malaysia was sold by the American importer as you see it below, no inspection, no proofing, NOTHING
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...No5rust1-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...No5rust2-1.jpg
I will say it again, if my Enfield misfired my bolt would be dissembled faster than you could say Marmite on toast. ;)
As a side note my cocking piece angle is at 17 degrees, the sear contacts over 95% of the surface of the cocking piece bent, my bolt has a new striker spring and my trigger is slicker than snot on a door knob. :thup:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6651-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Image14-1.jpg
Lock time is more important when shooting unsupported. From the bench, uniformity is king.
From the benchrester's standpoint, a fast locktime is desirable as this generally means the moving parts are lighter, not that they're "more tightly" sprung. Less impacting mass means less disturbance of the non-resilient sandbags. Since the bags won't deform the same each time, error is introduced. All of which will open groups - a 0.110" group may open up to 0.250" or 0.500"- horrors!
I'm thinking that the L-E crowd haven't "tweaked" their rifles to this point.....
ETA- Theoretically, a light "snappy" primer blow is best for good ignition, but the easiest way to improve locktime (striker speed) is by lightening the striker rather than "upping" the spring. Shortening travel, up to a point, works too. (I've done both to a L-E cocking piece AND added a "Blitzschnell" striker spring- it works, but saw no real difference in accuracy, even w/ the cocking bent cut all the way back to the safety notch.)
Let's all NOT forget that what we're talking about here is a simple, reliable, tried and tested No4 Enfield battle rifle.......................
Well, I guess I'll have to remove the striker to see what, if anything, is going on. I'm curious.
I already have the removal tool from Arrowmark which I bought here in the U.S. The extra striker and spring I got from Sarco.
I'll let everyone know what I find and take pics if needed.
I took it apart.
The striker protrudes out past the bolt body by .600". The spring is not broken and has flats at each end and looks fairly new with good bluing. The spring is 3.250" long.
No evidence of dragging or pieces of chips or anything. Looks like it was that particular rounds primer that didn't work quite as it was supposed to.
:)Thanks for the report!
But you may have spoiled an increasingly irrelavent discussion.:p Now we'll have to wander off track somewhere else.
We could ask if the spring coils clockwise or counter-clockwise? That might give Peter a laugh. The concentrated application of absurdity can be a wonderful thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
:dancingbanana:
Now you ask me. I just put it all back together! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by finloq
Anyway, the tool didn't fit quite right. I could feel that it wasn't properly engaging the striker cut outs. So, I pushed hard and slowly turned it loose. Yes, I did remove that screw second, first was removing the tool head.
Upon removal, I saw what the problem was concerning the tool fit. The half moon cut outs was burred up, probably when last installed.
Now I know that there will be a collective sigh and eyes rolling, but I got my Dremel tool out. I selected a metal cutting bit that was just right and very carefully took off the offending burrs. Now the tool fully seats and is a lot easier to put back on.
Thanks for everyone's input. If it wasn't for that, I'd probably would have never taken it off unless there was some catastrophic problem.