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brought my no.4 out to play and when i looked down the bore there was some kind of rust build up. it wasn't actually in the bore's metal but more like just laying on there. it was easily brushed away leaving my bore shiny again so which is it, the primer or the powder(spaghetti noodle) causeing the build up? and to think this was supposed to be mildly corrosive LMAO!!!
Your Pakistani ammo is probably Berdan primered. Most military surplus Berdan primered ammo from pre-1980's is corrosive. There is a salt-like substance in the primer to stabalize it. Unfortunately any of the primer residue that sticks to the inside of your barrel or bolt will draw moisture to itself. This can lead to rusting. Clean your rifle soon after firing and it will not be a problem. Soon, depends on your humidity. I live in the Mojave, not much of an issue, here. Some people use Windex (ammonia based cleaner nutrilizes the salts), Hoppes #9 works very well, some people use plain old water (the salts are microscopic and dissolve easily). Follow up with a light coating of oil and you will be fine.
I live in a region must like the nile delta but without the possibility of a drought so I guess it would be more like the mekong(sp?) delta which easily explains the speed in which the salts appeared. went shooting friday got the suprise yeasterday.Quote:
Originally Posted by finloq
thanks, i almost had to visit the crazy house for a little while over this incident.:beerchug:
Hoppe's No9 contains no water and will not dissolve or flush out corrosive primer salts.
Plain water is the easiest way to go, with a follow up of the Hoppe's to get other residue.
When that's done, set the rifle out where you can see it and clean it with water again on the second day.
Give it a visual inspection on the third day before you pack it away.
-----krinko
A difference of opinion. Krinko is probably more experienced than I and I would respect his opinion as erring on the side of caution is definetely the path to take here.
Hoppes #9 was formulated in 1903, when the conversion from black powder to smokeless powder was in full swing. It was designed to remove (among other things) the corrosive mercuric salts. One of Hoppes ingredients is Ammonium Hydrochloride, probably the source of that lovely smell (and why it does not taste good on a burrito).
"Old" Hoppe's maybe was a good "one chemical for all cleaning purposes", but don't count on it, esp. the new formulation. The potassium chlorate in the primer is part of the explosive compound. Whilst stable, upon firing it becomes potassium chloride, which is the heart healthy version of regular old table salt, sodium chloride.
Like table salt, it is very hydroscopic, and the moisture it attracts justs sits on the metal surface. Oils can mask or slow this potentially damaging situation, but they won't remove it. A good hot and/or soapy water flush WILL, however, wash the salts out. No magic involved!
no such thing as 'mildly corrosive', anymore than 'mildly pregnant'. The primer was most likely the usual British chlorate one of the '50s (before they moved to Eleyprime for .303s about 1961)
Any of the modern copper fouling solvents, "Sweet's 7.62" ** or even the one put out by Hoppe's, contain a lot of water to carry the ammonia they use to dissolve copper and will remove salts---if you don't want to go with water.
Hoppe's new formula removed an original ingredient related to benzene, which apparently caused cancer in most cancers. So for the sake of a tumor-free life, we are stuck with a less effective solvent.
I know the box says No9 will remove corrosive salts, but I wouldn't bet a bright bore on it.
-----krinko
**My Fave.
This was an awful lot of bandwidth used because somebody didn't clean their weapon. Shoot it - clean it. The primer comp, powder etc. don't come in to it.
if you are refering to me, i cleaned it after shooting while i was still at the range. i did my job, Outers did not do its job.:beerchug:Quote:
Originally Posted by TerryS
Ballistol is my favorite for corrosive cleaning. I shot a ton of corrosive Russian ammo in an AK I had. As long as I cleaned with Ballistol I never saw any corrosion and I live in a humid area.
When I were y'ung lad living in cardboard box.....
We cleaned our SMLE barrels by using the approved funnel to guide copious quantities of boiling water down the barrel. (the trick was to avoid any water getting anywhere near the woodwork). As I have not shot corrosive (mil spec, chlorate based) primers in my Lee Enfields since about 1975, it is not so much of an issue any more.
Some time in the 1960s, the RAAF apparently started using dilute phosphoric acid for barrel washing on their rifle ranges. Anyone else heard about this? Probably safer than scald burns and runaway fires on the range, too.
The mercury is in the "fulminate" component of the priming compound. I suspect that the reason it was used almost exclusively in "British" .303 ammo is that, if manufactured and stored correctly, it will ignite at any temperature found on the planet. Lead based primers are (or were) more fussy about extreme cold. Mercury will not adversely affect your rifle, however, from the instant of ignition, your brass is doomed. The mercury metal liberated on ignition instantly bonds with any brass it contacts and starts breaking the bond between copper and zinc, hence embrittlement. Those of us who grew up reloading the stuff very quickly got used to cracked necks during bullet seating. We resigned ourselves to not picking up cases after even the first reload, because of the rapid rate of failure during subsequent reloads/firings.
That is why the cups for mercuric primers are made using heavy COPPER cups, not reactive brass. Note also the size of the cup (.250") compared to what we now consider a "large" primer, (.210").
All of which comes back to the principle that military firearms are usually built around a cartridge, thus the striker specifications on your basic Lee Enfield ( and P-14) were set to work with mercuric / chlorate based primers with copper cups. Note the striker / boltface changes when the P-14 became the M-17.
The fulminate gets things going and the chlorate adds "brissance", the extended flash that ensures ignition of the powder. Very important when you are loading ammo with compressed bundles of long propellant sticks. Granulated, double based propellants are a lot easier to ignite consistently than the old long stick "Cordite". Note that "contract" .303, (US especially) was loaded with granular propellant and lead-based primers. It is still CORROSIVE, however, as it contained chlorate as per above.
The .30 M1 Carbine cartridge was the FIRST military cartridge in the world to be specified and mass produced with non-corrosive primers. Why? the gas system is "non user-maintainable", unlike the M1 Garand.
Why the slow uptake of non-corrosive primers? Reliability at all temperatures and under all storage conditions. Once again, "surplus" ammo is often "surplus" for a reason, usually poor performance in batch testing.
Sorry !
lol, I didn't mean to sound upset with you lol:beerchug:Quote:
Originally Posted by TerryS
now let us boogie!!!!! :dancingbanana:
There was a fellow in Canada who had a quantity of the galvanized steel funnels used by British troops to clean their rifles with boiling water. From what I gather, one of these funnels was issued to each squad, and after brewing up their tea, the men would use the funnel to pour a pint or so of boiling water down the bore, and then use their pull-through to run an oiled patch through the bore.
I bought one of the funnels several years ago, and it works great. When I go to shoot my No.4, I take a quart-size thermos bottle full of hot water with me to the range, and after shooting, use the funnel to pour the hot water down the bore. By the time I get home, the barrel has cooled off a bit, and I run a patch wet with Hoppe's Number 9 through it, followed by one or two dry patches, and I'm all done. Elapsed time, maybe 5 minutes.
Those funnels are GREAT and they work with ANY rifle that uses milsurp mercuric primers.
I bought a wooden CRATE of them out of Canada many years ago. Aside from several friends and keeping one for myself, Nobody wanted them, so I had a dealer friend take them off my hands. But NOW it's a different story.
To elaborate on the previous posts, every barrel contains microscopic cracks. Firing the rifle drives the salts into those cracks. BOILING HOT WATER expands the cracks, washing out the salts.
The ammonia in windex ONLY works on copper fouling.
Possibly fitting a copper tube to a metal funnel and flattening the funnel on onr side could be a substitute. though I think there is still a dealer in Canada who has the real thing.
This is still the British Army maxim - if you'll excuse the pun.
TREAT ALL AMMUNITION AS ERROSIVE AND CORROSIVE
I looked at the first post again, POF? Other wise known as Poor Old Fodder.
The stuff I have encountered is mostly click....Bang or simply CLICK!
I have around 500 rounds that were given to me by a dealer friend. It was returned to him by the people who bought it along with a rifle. They finally gave up when waiting after the click, they ejected a round and it went off before it hit the ground:eek: