30 - 06 Springfield - Sniper?

Come from the SMLE side - no knowledge of Springfields and not connected in any way with the following.

Saw today a nice looking rifle Springfield 30 - 06 with a very nice Unertl scope. The scope was 14 power, 3/4"ish tube, stamped 'Sniper' over 'USMC' over the Unertl badge, no spring, but with Unertl mounts.

Circa £4000/$6000!!!

I am used to seeing 4T's and L42's at breathtaking prices and do know a little about Unertl target/varmint scopes (have a Programmer) but:-

1. Did US snipers use 14x?

2. What era would this have been used, and where?

3. Is it particularly rare?

4. Is this the current Market?

5. Any other observations?

I realise I could probably scour this forum and probably answer most of these questions but hope all will bear with my shortcutting.

Regards
John

I think the Marines used 8X Unertls. I dont have enough knowledge to confirm or deny they used others. I know the originals are rare and go for big money.

As a sniper used in the Pacific WWII but stayed in inventory in following decades. If you can lay hands on the peice dimensions between monts are often used to determine legitimacy/knowledge of builder. If Marine gun bolt should be serialized and there will be other signature tell tales.

It has been estimated that the vast majority of so-called "Marine Sniper" rifles are fakes or put-togethers. Proceed with caution!

1. Did US snipers use 14x?
No. About 1750 8x Unertls were delivered to the USMC (or about half of what was originally ordered). Two of the problems with this scope cited were the narrow field of view and unsatisfactory light transmission in dim light (dawn and dusk). It's not likely a higher powered scope would have been ordered for the sniper role as those problems would have been amplified. Naturally the two foot length and sliding, micrometer adjusted mounts were not pluses in a combat rifle either. In early 1944 The Unertl order was cancelled and the Marines requested a quantity of M1903A4's from the US Army while work was ongoing toward a sniper version of the M1 rifle.

2. What era would this have been used, and where? The USMC used the M1903A1 w/ 8x Unertl in the pacific theatre during WW@ and in Korea. Some of the scopes survived and were used on Winchester Model 70's during Vietnam. If the scope has any USMC provenance at all it MIGHT be as scope for a match rifle.

3. Is it particularly rare? Original snipers are very rare as something less than 1700 would have ever been built. Many of those were "used up" in combat. Fakes, however, are quite common.

4. Is this the current Market? Well others may chime in but a decent M1903A1 is probably worth $1000. to $1500. (more if it can be shown to be a National Match or Special Target Rifle). The scope is probably worth $500. To $700. The mounts maybe another $200. and $100. worth of gunsmithing. A fake would be worth maybe $2500. as a curiosity. If the scope is a real USMC Sniper then the price would go up sustantially but in this case I tend to doubt it. The Unertl Trademark consisting of a representation of a lens element engraved on the tube was not used on the USMC sniper scopes.

5. Any other observations? If you can post pictures and more details it would help.
Also the serial number of the scope, the s/n of the rifle the barrel date and the details of metal finishes on the various components.

All this being said these are very neat rifles and highly collectible if legitimate. Unfortunatly fakes abound. Several years ago i ran across no less than three of them at a single gunshow!. :eek:

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Jim

Fake? Maybe only partially so. I agree that the Unertl sniper scopes were 8X. However, I happen to have a 14X Unertl that is stamped "USMC" on the eyepiece. It is, to the best of my knowledge, authentic and a genuine item. I DO NOT BELIEVE IT IS A SNIPER!! However, I do believe it is an authentic USMC Unertl, probably bought as a team scope during some earlier era. I acquired it in 1972 when I was at Annapolis during the summer training Midshipmen in marksmanship. I had gone to the DCM (now CMP) in DC concerning Garand draws and parts and met LtCol Smith who happened to be the Deputy DCM at the time. He invited me over to his house and gave me a couple of sets of Garand NM sights (item I had inquired about at the office). He mentioned he had a Springfield "1000 yd" gun he was selling for a friend and would I be interested. I was. Turned out to be an 03 in a laminated thumbhole stock with a Womac (Louisiana gunsmith) bbl. originally chambered 30-06 rechambered 30-338. It came with the scope and ammo can full of handloads. He said it was done up for his buddy by one of the AMUs. No reason to doubt the story, I wasn’t paying top dollar for a scope marked USMC, I was paying $175 for a slightly dated match gun with scope and ammo. Something that would enable a young beginning Hi power shooter to compete in matches that his Navy Garand in 7.62 weren’t the best choice. I in fact used it that year at Perry when I managed to make the Navy’s first team to use the M16 there. So maybe the scope is genuine, but some fool wanted to “enhance” it. Or maybe it is totally BS. And no I don’t know what a Marine scope was doing in the hands of an Army Office, but then in those days and those circles stranger things happened. I still have it and can post some pictures if there is interest.

Interested to see both rifles! :thup:

Thanks for all the input - I am intrigued. I didnt get a good look but might have an opportunity in a couple of weeks time in which case I will try and get info on marks etc.

With its condition and a 14x scope I couldnt see it being a genuine service weapon.

I cant see a service scope being engraved/stamped SNIPER USMC but on the other hand cant see a competent faker doing so either:dunno:

I know nothing of US service target competitions but I it might fit with being a USMC sniper team target weapon (standard service issue rifle fitted with target scope?) - perhaps some of you doughboys could help a limey out:beerchug:

John

There is a post perhaps on Culvers Shooting Page from a member that has a verified Marine Super Targetspot (similiar to a Unertl) that came from the shooting teams. The Marine Corps liked the exotic scopes they may not have been practical for combat but when they were working it helped make the reputation of the Marine rifleman.

My apologies if referencing another forum is taken as rude.

Traditionally U.S. Service Rifle marksmanship has revolved around the National Match Course which today is fired from 200-600 yards and involves position shooting and rapid fire. At 600 yards, firing was and still is done today with iron sights. However, there were "any rifle, any sight" matches and the big teams all had "any-any" guns which could double as 1,000 yard guns. I believe today one must still shoot iron sights at 1,000 in the Palma, but the Wimbledon is open to scope sights (feel free to correct me if I am wrong). Military teams in the U.S. definitely had a wide range of civilian and service bolt guns capable of being used in those matches.

Thanks Griff
That might well fit. I didnt take any notice of the foresight but the rearsight looked to my untutored eye like a very nice service issue ladder? type sight
John

Did you happen to notice the scope's S/N? That would help ID it. Also, the rings vary.

It's entirely possible it was "up-powered" at some point, that service was not uncommon in the fifties.

I spoke to the seller today. He said it wasnt an original service barrel or scope.

I might get the chance to have a look in a couple of weeks in which case I will report back - but - it seems like an awful lot of effort just to produce a fairly evident 'fake'.

John

John,
I do not believe that the original Unertl scopes were ever stamped with the word "sniper" anywhere on them. I could be wrong but have seen one original and it was not stamped "sniper" just USMC.

John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gundog 64

John,
I do not believe that the original Unertl scopes were ever stamped with the word "sniper" anywhere on them. I could be wrong but have seen one original and it was not stamped "sniper" just USMC.

John

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The originals were marked as follows:

J. Unertl
USMC-Sniper
NNNN

While i can't vouch for the authenticity of the scopes in the photographs the markings are consistent with published references. What should not be seen on the the WW2 vintage USMC sniper scope is the Unertl logo consisting of a lens element or prism.

The particular model of Unertl scope used by the USMC was the 1.25" Combination Target. The humpers seem content to put "any old long skinny target scope" on their wares.:nono:

Regards,

Jim