Cocking piece difference in No1 and No4 etc

Before I ask this question I want to say that I did a brief search and did not find my answer.

Why did the cocking piece on the No4 not have a shoulder or rim on it for better grip? To me it seems like a de-evolution in progress over the older rifles. Even with the grooves on the piece, there does not seem to be the control. I do know of some people who have allowed the piece to slip while releasing the mechanism.

I should qualify that my mindset is one more of recreation than military so I could be missing something there. I should also plead ignorance when it comes to knowing if certain factories did this while others did not in the same period. I am merely making an assumption that No1 and 4 were different.

There's a one word answer. Cheapness............... If you want to elaborate, there's a further few words. Simplicity of manufacture

Was there a high rate of accidental discharge from these rifles when you mix in rain, mud, snow and just plain numbness from cold? I suspect that they could slip rather easily.

A friend of mine (Canadian) was in Italy during WW2. He said one night when he was tired, he tried to ease the cocking piece forward under control but it slipped. The rifle discharged and the bullet hit a Thompson in some guys lap in the bolt, travelled up and out the barrel. The dozing individual shouted " You dumb bas*ard!!, You almost killed me!",to which he could say nothing. He did almost kill him.

The early ones did

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...standard-6.jpg

and it was soon dropped for faster production. You shouldn't be using the cocking piece in this way anyway, as related above.

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Originally Posted by Mk VII

The early ones did

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...standard-6.jpg

and it was soon dropped for faster production. You shouldn't be using the cocking piece in this way anyway, as related above.

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Wow, that IS a pretty cocking piece! Nice, No.4. Can we see more pictures?

The main purpose of any gripping surface on the cocking piece is to enhance re-cocking after a misfire, or de-cocking on an empty chamber. Trying to ease the striker down onto the primer of a live round is a really bad idea. Even if successful, having the firing pin resting on a live primer is a very hazardous condition since an inadvertent blow to the cocking piece, or even banging the muzzle or butt on a hard object, can set the round off. If the rifle has a safety, that's what we use to prevent unintended discharge. If it doesn't, we open the action.

FWIW, many No.1 rifles have a grooved cocking piece and, as we see above, some early No.4's had a round, rimmed one.

The Enfield also has a "half-cock" feature, only way to achieve it is to hold on to the cocking piece and pull the trigger, that way the firing pin would not be resting on the primer. Can't see why anyone would want to use it though instead of the regular safety catch.

If you'd like to find out a real purpose for the "half-bent" feature, full-cock the piece, place the safety lever a little less than halfway to the "on" position, pull the trigger, release it, then flip the safety "off". Now imagine what would happen without the half-bent notch, with a round up the spout.

Interestingly, the first Lee Metfords had a safety lever reminiscent of the later SMLE.

It was apparently not a roaring success, as the Mk1* and 11 models did away with it altogether.

The Lee Metford Carbine introduced the "chunky" cocking piece with attached safety lever and this feature then carried on into the Mk 11* Metfords and Lee Enfield series.

The SMLE introduced a new (and greatly improved trigger system and the safety mechanism went back to where it had started in 1888, but with significant improvements.

Note that the nice rounded button look on the cocking piece was not there for looks. It was designed to protect the operator's hand during bayonet fighting: the spirit of the pike died hard. The "blocky" grooved model was originally an "expedient" for wartime. As noted, the early No4s started out with the expensive one in the picture above, but that fell by the wayside fairly quickly. Ditto the elegant machining involved in forming the radiussed surface on the forward tang around the safety stud.

Tech nerd note: On a SMLE, the "safety lever" manipulated by the operator is called the "BOLT, Locking". This is probably because it is externally threaded to drive the other bit and, when rotated, draws the cocking piece rearwards and clear of the sear. The funny-looking ring with a lug and cool 8-start left-hand thread, is called the "CATCH, Safety" and acts to prevent bolt rotation.

From a machinists point of view, the SMLE "Bolt, Locking is a gem. cutting that multi-start thread down the shank, right up to the lever would have been quite interesting to watch. No wonder that the No4 "Bolt, locking" was fabricated from a separate lever and shank, held together with a hard steel pin.

Sorry to be a little bit contrary chaps BUT........... Unless you know different and can show me where it says so in the EMER's, user or technical handbooks, there was never a reason for a soldier to un-cock his rifle from the cocked position by using the cocking piece. It would be absolutely taboo. Even if he had a misfire, he'd simply eject the round and carry on firing. Decocking was always by firing off the action.

Armourers only were taught to close the bolts during inspections etc etc by squeezing the trigger at the same time so that the cocking piece went forwards under control on the short to long cam. This is the only way in which there will be insufficient, even accidental force on the striker to set a cartridge off

This situation also arises with the Browning No2 and L9 pistols currently in use. If it's loaded and 'ready', with a live round in the chamber, then the safety is put ON and there the hammer stays. You try to 'de-cock' at your peril, knowing that a wet or cold hand and one slip will earn you a rocket up the xxxe AND a fine of 28 days pay. PLUS any damage caused. And if anyone is injured or worse, then the world will collapse around your ears.

So, unless there is a proper inbuilt means to de-cock, then don't do it. Just unload or put the safe to SAFE

The milled in "grasping grooves" are a bit of a mystery, though. What is their actual intended (and safe) function?

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Originally Posted by RobSmith

The Enfield also has a "half-cock" feature, only way to achieve it is to hold on to the cocking piece and pull the trigger, that way the firing pin would not be resting on the primer. Can't see why anyone would want to use it though instead of the regular safety catch.

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Not the case. The official way to half-cock a Lee-Enfield is to pull the uncocked cocking piece to the rear until the sear engages with the half bent. To remove the half cock one pulls the cocking piece further to the rear until, the sear engages the full bent. ("Today we had naming of parts." to quote the poem.)

The half-cock was an anachronistic left over from the time when Lee-Enfilds did not have safety catches. I was told during training that it was there: "to provide an additional safety."

ALMOST correct lads but............ The reason for the half cock is that of an inbuilt mechanical safety. Nothing more or less.

I won't go into the mechanicals, but if a rifle is fired with the bolt not fully closed down, then on recoil, the bolt could lift and be (literally) fired backwards into the firers face. For example, if the bolt head were unscrewed a complete turn. To prevent this, should you fire it in this condition or the bolt not fully locked down, the rifle will 'half-fire' or half locked into 'half-cock'. Hence the phrase '...going off at half cock....'. A bit like the England football team last night. But I digress.

Once it has gone off at half cock (the rifle, not the footy team..... although they do need shooting....) the only way to get it back is to grip the cocking piece and FULLY cock the rifle again. Now, the firer KNOWS that something is mechanically (broken part etc) or physically (didn't lock the bolt properly) wrong

It could be that there is a fault with the rifle, such as a broken cocking piece or defective safety catch or locking bolt that will also cause a mechanical problem, so this mechanical inbuilt safety prevents the half locked rifle from firing.

Great question

From this, you'll see that while there might be a reason to COCK the rifle again, there is NEVER a reason to deliberately 'un-cock' or half cock the rifle

I believe Reynolds said the round shape of the MkI or "button" cocking piece was to reduce the likelihood of injury to the right hand when bayonet fighting.

Mr. Laidler has raised another critical issue in raising the issue of the "safety" function of the half-cock notch on the cocking piece. Note that in the original Lee system, the trigger and sear were coupled together.

There are two tiny but vitally important bits of metal involved in the additional safety function as per SMLE, No4, and No5 series.

These can be found as that little island in the cam track area at the rear of the bolt body and the lump on the top of the forward end of the cocking piece. These little lugs are “safety studs”.

As the bolt is cycled, these studs orbit around each other. However, when the bolt has not been properly closed and the trigger is pulled, one of two things will happen:

1. The stud on the cocking piece may strike the rear right hand side radius of the safety lug on the bolt body and thus fully close the breech. The rifle may not fire however, as the striker will have been significantly slowed by this action.

2. The stud on the cocking piece may strike the small flat on the rear of the safety lug on the bolt body and stop dead, thus preventing the striker from moving forward to fire the cartridge. Closing the bolt from this point, with the trigger released, will result in the cocking piece moving forward over the sear, until the sear nose enters the half cock notch. When the nose of the sear has entered the half cock notch, the rifle cannot be fired. Also, the bolt cannot be opened because the safety studs are beside each other, thus preventing bolt rotation. The cocking piece must be manually withdrawn to the fully cocked position to get things going again.

The half cock notch prevents the firing of a cartridge when the bolt is not fully closed and locked or in the event the rifle is dropped or jarred and the sear disengages from the full-bent of the cocking piece.

I have seen several bolts with the safety stud missing. I have never established whether it was “removed” deliberately or broken off due to metallurgical issues or extreme abuse.

Truth be told I only found out about the "falf cock" feature accidentally. Was inspecting a buddy's rifle and decided to ease the firing pin down while holding to the cocking piece after having checked the chamber. You can imagine my horror when the rifle locked up on me as a result. A few minutes of fiddling while my buddy was not exactly happy with me and all was well.

I don't understand, all you have to do is press the trigger and flip the bolt handle down if you don't want to dry fire it...

Lots of people out there aren't quite intricately familiar with the internal mechanics of their rifle, and don't know that as a result.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I don't understand, all you have to do is press the trigger and flip the bolt handle down if you don't want to dry fire it...

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And if you don't want a round in the chamber with a full magazine, simply press down on the rounds with your thumb and ease the bolt forward OVER the rounds in the magazine. Not exactly rocket science. As stated previously, holding the trigger back while closing the bolt on an empty chamber will decock it.

Now the only cocking piece that was withdrawn from service was the one without ridges, (a wartime economy measure)

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I don't understand, all you have to do is press the trigger and flip the bolt handle down if you don't want to dry fire it...

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Just for safety, when you raise the bolt handle to decock and the assembly moves rearward, check under the extractor for brass before pulling the trigger and lowering the bolt handle. It doesn't take any more time, and you don't get a surprise the next time you check the weapon...

You guys have got to be kidding...I'm talking about empty rifles.

"Empty" weapons are the most dangerous ones! Good grief...

Alright, without the head beating against the wall symbol, let me know if I am correct in my paraphrasing:
the appropriate way to decock with a live round in the chamber is to lift the action?
The bolt will then come back to meet the rest of the action in an uncontrolled manner and fling the round out OR by adding back pressure to the bolt and easing the round out from the ejector?

If for some reason the round was not ejected but rather just came straight back while still seated near the striker, there will be no discharge due to the half cock mechanism?

Am I correct?

Judging from some of the replies about misfires etc I must not have been the only one to think that uncocking the action back to the half cock position was the appropriate way.

Scoombes. You are not correct. You are dangerously wrong. There is NO need, EVER to deliberately de-cock, half cock or whatever you are thinking of with your rifle.

If you have a missfire, unload and eject the round. If you want to simply unload, then just unload. If it's loaded and you want to make the rifle safe, then just put the safety to SAFE.

never, never but NEVER manually de-cock/half-cock the rifle

Maybe I missed it, or misunderstood the post name, but what is the difference between the late WW1 slabsided knob and the later WW2 knobs?

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Originally Posted by scoombes

Alright, without the head beating against the wall symbol, let me know if I am correct in my paraphrasing:
the appropriate way to decock with a live round in the chamber is to lift the action?
The bolt will then come back to meet the rest of the action in an uncontrolled manner and fling the round out OR by adding back pressure to the bolt and easing the round out from the ejector?

If for some reason the round was not ejected but rather just came straight back while still seated near the striker, there will be no discharge due to the half cock mechanism?

Am I correct?

Judging from some of the replies about misfires etc I must not have been the only one to think that uncocking the action back to the half cock position was the appropriate way.

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Sorry if my post wasn't more complete!

If you see brass (of any sort) on a rifle you wish to de-cock- EJECT that round- check the mag for more rounds, and THEN decock.

Sometimes brevity is dangerous, too...