Another busy stock disc - this one is stamped on both sides. It was a battlefield pickup from the Somme. Can anyone decipher this one?
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Another busy stock disc - this one is stamped on both sides. It was a battlefield pickup from the Somme. Can anyone decipher this one?
17th City of London Battalion and 3rd Battalion Royal Welsh Fusileers.
Thanks, Mick. It comes from the Delville Wood - High Wood area. I shall now research the movements of those units on the Somme. Then maybe I can decide which way to mount it on an SMLE.
For interest, here is another picture from the same area.
Mick, is 17th City of London Battalion the same as the 17th Bn, London Regiment? They took High Wood and were exactly in the spot where the disc was found.
Yes Rob, offically they are (or were) known as the City of London Regiment, but in normal conversion they would have been referred to as the London Regiment.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobD
Great find! I love seeing real items attached to real history.
It all fits as the 47th (2nd London) Division is credited with taking High Wood. The cemetery opposite the wood bears the division's name. There is also a memorial archway to them in the nearby village of Martinpuich. Memorials to units involved both at High Wood & Martinpuich were opened at an official ceremony in 1925, though some of them have since been replaced.
ATB
Now an eithical question: would anyone object awfully if I put this disc onto a suitable SMLE? Not to enhance the provenance of the rifle, but in memoriam, as it were. I intend to put a disc of paper under the disc with the story on it.
Sounds good to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobD
The question for me would be - should I show the London Regiment or the Welsh Fusilier side :) The SMLE seems a perfect place to display the disk.
Sorry, I can't agree. The City of London Regiment - the Royal Fusiliers and the London Regiment (based on the County of London rather than just on the City) are two different entities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangely Brown
You could mount the marking disc in one of those medal type framed cases with an explanation of the origins of it plus a photo of the other side....., plus the origins of those markings too.
I found the skeletal remains of a Vickers water can where only the soldered seams remain plus the brass top of course, a similar small tin with a brass label soldered on the top, engraved FETT (Fat/Grease in German) plus an oval brass key tag marked OFFICERS MESS ANTE-ROOM and W-arrow-D on the rear. Quite clearly, it won't have been an Officer who lost his keys but his dim witted batman!
However, after watching me for an hour busy beavering away with my little metal detector, the kindly Dr Roger Payne and pals decided to tell me that metal detecting was STRICTLY verboten! I got bail the next week and deported....... only joking.
Playing with the internet and based upon where you found it, this is probably the unit involved (as already identied).
This is a territorial Unit.
17th (County of London) Bn London Regiment (Poplar & Stepney Rifles)
1/17th (County of London) Battalion (Poplar and Stepney Rifles)
August 1914 : at 66 Tredegar Road, Bow. Part of 5th London Brigade, 2nd London Division. Moved on mobilisation to St Albans.
10 March 1915 : landed at Le Havre.
11 May 1915 : formation became 141st Brigade in 47th (2nd London) Division.
1 February 1918 : transferred to 140th Brigade in same Division.
Here's an interesting link referring to the High Wood area:
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/fo...hl=17th+london
I'm assuming from the polished flat look of the RWF side that this was the first marking. The lack of any metal displacement around the edges of the stamps and the infilling of the characters with some material suggests the disc was polished. Not sure if the marking discs were polished pre-WWI, but I can well believe they might have been.
I wonder if this rifle was salvaged from the battlefield and re-issued to whichever London regiment it was. Do we know anything about the standard procedures with salvaged rifles in WWI? Presumably there was no attempt made to return rifles to a particular regiment they were marked to? Were the discs reversed by the rear area workshops and then remarked when the rifles reached whatever battalion they were issued to?
Famous regiment the RWF and one of the most written about by former members: "Goodbye to All That", "The War The Infantry Knew", and "Old Soldiers Never Die".
I think you can be sure that disc and the rifle it was on passed before the eyes of at least one of those authors, perhaps more than one.
As Peter says, some method of display that shows both sides would be my suggestion, but if you have to choose, I'd choose the RWF side myself.
Sorry but I seem to be disagreeing with people today. "Maybe its because I'm a Londoner" or at least my mother's family were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amatikulu
That unit was most definitely not a 'Pals Battalion' but rather it was an ex Rifle Volunteer Rifle Corps. The Volunteer Rifle Corps were the origin of the National Rifle Association and in 1908 formed part of the Territorial Force - later and now called the Territorial Army.
BTW, the Honourable Artillery Company were ordered to join the new Territorial Force but declined.
Peter,
Whoops! Thought you'd forgotten about that! Mind you, you did get your own back in a time honoured fashion by hastening the corrosion of my Volvo wheel arch (IIRC)!
ATVB
Thanks for that interesting little fact. One of my GGFs was in the H.A.C. and I remember being told that he was quite proud of the fact! He later went into the CAMC and then then flew a Spad in the RFC and ended the war as a "kriegie" Which is what kept him alive probably.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerhunter
I seem to remember that there had to be an Act of Parliament to get the HAC on board. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Surpmil
From The journals of the Soldiers Killed in the Great War ((journal 74 of 80)there was the 1st & 2nd London Regiment which were part of the Rifle brigade
1/17th London Regiment 43 men recorded as KIA or Died of Their Wounds all in 1918 except one in 1917 who is only recorded as died. All recorded in France & Flanders.
2/17th London Regiment 35 men recorded as KIA or Died of Their Wounds all in 1918. All recoreded in France & Flanders or salonika.
Nearly all of them were originally from other regiments.
Now just a thought, while you know the rifle you put it on is not the original, the next owner could pass it off as one at a premium price.
I do have a rifle picked up on the Somme, (No1Mk1) but it is a solid ball of rust with no wood and the barrel is bent on a 45 degree angle. The safety is on, so there is probably one up the spout. A friend was touring the battlefields in france and this was on the side of the road along with other stuff the farmers plow up,waiting to be picked up for salvage.
You can always take it off if you sell the rifle, then no confusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobD
I do this kind of thing for the US Army all the time. Use two sheets of plexiglass (perspex) and a piece of thick matte board the same thickness as the disc. Carefully cut out a circle in the middle of the matte board the same circumference as the disc (use the disc as a template). Place the disc in this circle. Glue whatever information text you want to add on both sides of the matte board. Drill 4 holes in each corner of the plexiglass and sandwich the matte board with the disc between the plexiglass and fasten the entire thing with 4 short screws (I use brass, they look nicer). You can fabricate a base with a nice piece of wood rebated to accept the bottom edge of the display- push it in and you're done. You can see both sides of the disc and the associated information by just turning the display around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
That's a good idea P'14. I'll try it sometime. I've got something ready for just such an idea...........