I've just inherited about 100 rounds of oily greasy 303. Can I dump it a pot of turps for 10 minutes to clean them or will it penetrate the ammo and ruin it? thanx
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I've just inherited about 100 rounds of oily greasy 303. Can I dump it a pot of turps for 10 minutes to clean them or will it penetrate the ammo and ruin it? thanx
If it's only 100rds, why not just don some gloves and manually rub 'em clean whilst watching some old DVD? I've probably done tens of thousands that way (including removing resizing lube from cases)-for some reason i don't like "bathing" loaded rounds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJW NZ
No, not if you expect them to fire afterwards.
Hand wipe them clean. Do not soak. Do not think of putting them in a tumbler ether. The action will cause the powder grains to rub against each other enough to destroy the retardant coating. Result will be a case full of powder that burns like Red Dot.
I dind't know that would happen JBS, and I know of people who have done it...
Read the safety warnings from the powder makers on this subject. :thup:Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
That's a rather significant piece of information, to put it mildly. I was going to suggest tumbling in sawdust.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBS
I know a chap here who tumbles all sorts of old ammo to clean it up before sale. He tumbled some for me too!
Is there any documentation or studies to support this?
I agree with surp mill.
For those of us not familiar with the terms am I correct in thinking that a powder that burns like red dot, will mean a very fast ignition, and maybe dangerously high chamber pressures?
I believe you're correct RJW, but I have heard this powder breakdown theory before, also w/o documentation. Considering that ammo is often shaken for months whilst riding over rough terrain in various vehicles and such, it doesn't seem to me an hour of vibration in a tumbler would be all that much worse. Inadvertent primer detonation (whilst in the tumbler) seems a little more likely...
I reload and have high standards on ammunition so lets put our thinking caps on. You want to take surplus military ammunition that already failed military testing requirements and shake the living crap out of it in a vibrating CARTRIDGE CASE cleaner.
Show me any military vehicle or aircraft that vibrates as much as a vibrating case cleaner and I'll show you vehicles and aircraft sitting on a bombing range. :rolleyes:
Live ammunition does NOT belong in a vibrating case cleaner at any time, and I would hate to think that JBS is the only one in this forum with the common sense to read instruction manuals.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ecleaner-1.jpg
WARNING!
Do not attempt to clean loaded ammunition under ANY conditions. :slap:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...owarning-1.jpg
And you wonder why Quality Control Inspectors insist on YOU reading the manuals. :bitch:
Depends on how old is old .... If the stuff is loaded with cordite I wouldn't think mild tumbling would be much to worry about in terms of powder degradation.
Personally I was thinking of a rotary tumbler such as my friend uses. Essentially a large rock tumbler.
Is anyone aware of instructions against tumbling live ammunition from the makers of that type of tumbler? (It makes sense, but I'd like to hear what they say "officially")
Presumably cordite in 'sticks' would be much less prone to this sort of danger?
Also cases where the propellant is packed tight?
I not saying putting ANY live ammo in ANY sort of tumbler is a good idea, but I wonder where the real threat to safety is most likely to be present. Nor am I saying that the severity of vibration is as great in "normal" transport, but that the time factor can be up to hundreds or thousands of times greater, given that some of this stuff has been "knocking around" for decades!
The words “surplus ammunition” is the biggest misinterpretation in the world of “surplus” that could ever be used. You are not buying a used military M1 Garand rifle, you are buying ammunition that failed military testing standards and was gotten rid of by the military. Repeat, this “surplus ammunition” failed velocity and chamber pressure testing standards set by the military.
And now you are talking about putting this degraded “surplus ammunition” in a case tumbler/cleaner and further abusing the powder inside the case by allowing the powder granules to have the deterrent coating worn away.
Why would you put so much time lovingly restoring and caring for your beloved Enfields and then turn around and fire the crappiest ammunition in the world in them. Now you are talking about further degrading this garbage ammunition by shaking and vibrating the hell out of it and possibly turning the ammo into proof testing rounds.
Are JBS and I the only ones who read the warning in the reloading manuals about ammunition safety. :banghead:
Hi Ed, sorry to hijack a thread but I hope we a few days along and I'll be forgiven ... On the HT sniper rifle, was the H barrel floated from knox to muzzle, or partially bedded, or ... we're on a small thread called H stock by P07, trying to id a forend he has, but in general thats an interesting question.
ps I have a new baby in the closet, a no1mk3 fulton plus parker hale stamped, in stock as issued configuration. Its been the well looked after property of the RNZ Navy, I'd guess they had a shooting team perhaps. In any case I'll do an expose soon that shows off the stock fultons tricks, unadulterated by years of shooters fiddling with it.
Thank you Ed, I get so tired of fighting this battle. If the gentlemen in the Lab coats working in multi million dollar Ballistics Laboratories tell me " don’t tumble / vibrate clean/polish loaded ammunition" I listen to them!Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Horton
On a side note remember the part about De-Xed ammo for age in storage, that stuff also shows up as MilSurp.
Interesting assertion to make about ALL "surplus" ammunition. Is there evidence to support this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Horton
Talking about this to my friend, he was aware of the issue, but does not feel limited tumbling is likely to make any significant difference. He mentioned some IVI 7.62mm that was about 25 years old and quite inconsistent. He tumbled it without media for about 15 minutes and found this corrected the problem: the powder was caked and this was causing inconsistent ignition, which the tumbling corrected.
Tumbling did not correct anything. Your friend is very lucky he did not kill himself. When nitro based powder starts to cake it is a sign of extreme degradation and the nitro is separating from it’s bond with the cellulose. It has a most uncontrollable burn pattern and can produce tremendous chamber pressures. Some times the things people do makes me want to never shoot at a public range again, makes me glad I am able to have a private range on my small ranch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Surpmil
Reprint of a letter.
Tue, March 2, 2010 10:04:34 AM
From: Dave Campbell
To: Xxxxxxx
It is the policy of Hodgdon Powder Co. to reccommend against ever tumbling or vibrating loaded or reloaded ammunition. Vibration for even short
periods of time may degrade propellants or change their burn characteristics. Vibrating propellants may cause coatings to wear off and edges or
ends to erode.
Dave Campbell
Ballistician/ Customer Service
Hodgdon Powder Company Family of Propellants:
Hodgdon Smokeless Powders, The Brand That’s True
IMR Legendary Powders
Winchester Smokeless Powders, For Loading Professionals
Pyrodex
Triple7
Goex Black Powder
White Hots
Hodgdon - The Gun Powder People
913-362-9455 ext. 117
dcampbell@hodgdon.com
RJW- Happy news about the baby! Oh, and since this IS your thread you can't hijack it...
Again, Did I EVER recommend tumbling or even bathing loaded ammo? No? So why all the acrimony? I think the questions raised have validity. I merely have a interet in seeing if there actually is test data that can support all these claims of danger. Thanks to JBS for print ing the corporate CYA but it's not data or even study results. I'm thinking that there's good info out there somewhere, I'm just "shaking the tree" a bit to see if any falls out.
As far as statements about surplus ammo go, well...
I don't care what your friends have to say about tumbling ammo, and I don't care what Uncle Joe told you about using a vibrating case cleaner to clean your old ammo.
Some people actually worked at a military depot for over 38 years and even spent the last 25 years as a Master Level Quality Control Inspector. Some Inspectores were even trained to inspect stored military ammunition and kept one of the tools issued to them. :rolleyes:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6869-1.jpg
Some of the Inspectors were even dumb enough to volunteered to help set up storage facilities in hot desert countries where you couldn't even get a cold beer after work. :bitch: Ammunition can be stored in a air conditioned and humidity controlled area or stored under harsh conditions anywhere in the field. When it fails ballistic testing it is gotten rid of by the military, some of it can be recycled and some of it is bought by scrap dealers who sell it as "surplus".
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
Go ahead and shake the crap out of your ammo and then grease your cases to fire form them. Just remember Ed told you NOT to do either one.
(97% of all errors are human errors and only 3% are actual mechanical failures, so go ahead and add to the human error factor)
Here is a target fired with tumbled ammunition---not .303, because I don't have any ugly enough to tumble.
This is 1970's WCC .223 recovered from the ground somewhere in Central America, tumbled to make it pretty and then sold to suckers in the USA. (I got it cheap from an estate sale, before you jump to any conclusions.)
Just standard 55grain FMJ, fired from an Eagle Arms A2 H-Bar, using standard A2 iron sights, rested on sandbags.
Rate was "semi-rapid", which involves minimal sight alignment and a little less speed than a you-tube mag dump.
Notice the wild dispersion of hits caused by the degraded nature of the tumbled ammunition. Pressure must have been all over the place, too, as I could see the sides of the receiver puffing in and out during the course of the string.
Finally, the rifle blew up and I died.
A needless tragedy.
-----krinko
Ed, I would not consider tumbling anything loaded but you say surplus ammo is ammo that failed some test by the military. I can't agree, millions of rounds of surplus ammo is being sold as the country has now decided thru joining things like NATO to change calibres of their military weapons. Perfect example is the Czech 7.62 X 39 that is on the market now. The Czech's now have gone to NATO calibres and have no need for "39" ammo. Of course there will always be some crap on the market but that doesn't make ALL surplus ammo crap. The tins of Czech "39" are sealed and even "pop" when opened proving the contents if stored properly will last for many years to come. Look at all the surplus .303 you could buy years ago, it became surplus as we went to .308 not because it was "bad", I shot some not too long ago and it worked fine.
I have to agree with that last post, surplus also means no longer needed. This can be due to changing calibers of rifles in use, changing mission requirements, or simply needing cash. While some might be due to failing tests, that's probably in the minority with most currently available surplus ammo.
Thanks for your comments. I spoke to him about this and more or less read out your remarks. He says it is more a case of portions of the propellant sticking than all of it "caking" or "clumping" into a mass. He mentioned that he was told many years ago by a shooter who was a former employee of one of the large ammo makers in the UK, to always tap his cases three times on the side of his rifle to loosen the propellant. That was when shooting older ammo particularly. He mentioned that he is using powders in his reloading some of which are up to thirty years old and getting as good results as he ever has.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBS
This gent is a repeat Bisley team member and a machinist and gunsmith with extensive reloading experience by the way.
Considering that the practice of tumbling ammo is probably quite widespread, I suspect we would be hearing of accidents if this was a significant safety issue. Perhaps accidents have occured of which the cause has gone unrecognized, but I have no information on that.
There are of course margins of safety built in to most technologies, and while I don't disrespect your knowledge and experience, or Ed's, my friend has been gunsmithing, shooting and reloading for at least three decades now and that counts for a good deal I think, when the person in question is intelligent, thoughtfull and not the slightest bit "know-it-all".
Sorry for the late reply, I was away for the weekend.
There are many "online experts" handing out information on the internet. Here is a simple request, show me any official documentation from case cleaner manufactures or reloading equipment manufactures telling you it is safe to tumble or vibrate loaded ammunition.
Right now (inherent weakness) Alfred AKA GunnerSam is handing out reloading and Enfield information in a cast bullet forum. The problem is Alfred doesn't have a reloading press and doesn't cast bullets.
Undocumented word of mouth information from so called on-line experts is worthless.
The real experts who print the written word in instruction pamphlets and reloading manuals tell you to NOT tumble or vibrate clean your ammunition.
Ammunition Notice
JP LRP-07™ rifles chambered in 7.62x51 are designed to function with SAAMI spec. commercial-grade factory .308 Winchester ammunition. We recognize that many avid shooters reload for their rifles, and carefully assembled hand loads should function when appropriate component combinations are used and brass is properly sized and gauged. However, we will not warrantee damage caused by hand-loaded ammunition that is not compatible with the rifle.
We do not recommend the use of surplus military ammunition due to the considerable variation from manufacturer to manufacturer, lot to lot, year to year, and from the components used and the processes in manufacturing. In some cases, surplus ammo has been mass tumbled to clean the years of tarnish off the cases, which actually causes the powder to break down. This drastically changes the burn rate of the propellant and the subsequent internal ballistic characteristics of the load, leading to the potential for extreme pressures.
JP Rifles
Ed you are right in the fact of it possibly being dangerous to shoot tumbled ammo but the far greater majority of surplus ammo has never seen a tumbler and comes in sealed containers. I personally have never purchased any loose surplus ammo other than for my ammo collection and NEVER worry about shooting what I buy. If we didn't shoot surplus ammo most of us would never shoot. My son and I have shot thousands of rounds of surplus 7.62 X 39 ammo and we really don't worry about it. This "never use suplus", reminds me of companies that make product and tell you to only use their batteries or whatever in the item, yeah right, usually they are very self-serving and playing CYA on liability. I will continue to buy and shoot surplus and if it ends up as a disaster I am sure one of my buddies will post my demise.
Unfortunately there are two factors that always get involved these days: the obsession with avoiding potential liabilities on the part of businesses and manufacturers, and the good old profit motive: "don't use that no-good old stuff, buy some of our new whoopedy-do ammo!"
From what you've told us of your background Ed, I have the impression that you have many years of doing things strictly "by the book"; which I'm sure is exactly what I would want in someone inspecting equipment I had to use. Commercial manufacturers are not the military however, for whom price is no object, since the rest of us pay for all the equipment.
Like the big to-do over the supposed strength of the Lee Enfield in 7.62mm, I can't help wondering why we are not hearing of problems caused by this practice, if there are any.
Obviously some propellants like cordite are not going to move much in the case, so apparently not much to worry about there.
I also wonder whether all propellants have this issue, or only some.
Military ammo should be made to withstand a lot of movement over protracted periods without any degredation: bouncing around on vehicles and aircraft etc. etc. Some of those scenarious could very easily equal the effect of 15 minutes in a tumbler I suspect.
As for "Internet experts", you'll notice that I do not pontificate, I only speculate in what I consider a reasonable, common sense way based on the information that I have.
Whilst not on subject, directly, Mr. Horton's link above to JP rifles and their AR10 variant, was rather amusing to me as the majority of 7.62x51 "surplus" ammo that I have fired in recent years all fall on the "bad" list. I've had no dramas with any of it, much of it has been VERY accurate, much more so than US M80 ball, and have had no reliablilty issues.
Excerpt below:
"Much surplus ammunition is not made to exact specifications. We have found that some of this ammunition has caused problems in our rifles due to the use of a tar-like sealant for waterproofing. When this ammunition is used in our rifles, this sealant melts and coats the chamber causing failures to extract and to chamber. Afterwards, any rifle in which this ammunition is used will have the same problem if the chamber and the bore are not cleaned thoroughly. We have found that surplus ammunition from the following countries/manufactures will cause these problems in our rifles:"
South African----------------------------------------[GREAT stuff! I've shot thousands and thousands of rounds!]
Venezuela Cavim ------------------------------------[maybe the worst on the list, but it's OK- esp for LMG use.]
Austrian Hirtenberger ---------------------------------[Very good quality]
Some lots of German----------------------------------[???]
British (underpowered—will not cycle action)---[Just bought a couple more cases recently- no problems]
Indian (overpowered)-----------------------------[Haven't shot much, but it chrono'd OK]
Winchester white boxes marked 7.62"-------------[reliable, accuracy not the best]
[Haven't shot the Wolf brand in this caliber, so i left it off- besides it's NOT surplus- it's commercial ammo made for profit...]
"[]" comments inside square thingies are mine.
Of course I never shot anything other than match ammo out of my AR10(T), but I sold it just because it was REALLY tough to remove stuck live rounds-which were my fault-, but the warning flag was heeded...
ANY of my other self-loading 7.62x51s are happy with any old thing...
BTW- PLEASE don't buy the sealed Portuguese 7.62x51 (FNM)- I want it all for myself!
Have shot the South African in two different guns (semi-auto and bolt action) and must agree it is very good and very accurate. One thing some modern Winchester .308 in a white box marked for "Police and Prison use only not for resale" has been showing up at Guns Shows here in B.C. The outer carton appears normal and nothing listed as to what you find inside. This is the first time I have seen it, bought a case and it seem to be good ammo, and I know it is not military surplus but it is something surplus.
There are exceptions to every rule and the Communist block countries selling ammunition off to make money is one of them, BUT my Enfields do not shoot 7.62 X 39 ammunition.
The majority of American surplus ammunition is gotten rid of because it fails testing standards, when shot to shot pressure variations exceed limitations the ammo is removed from military inventory is one major reason. To put this in simple terms the ammunition actually failing two test standards, pressure variations and accuracy standards.
Below is krinko's surplus ammunition and its group size.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
Below is Ed's 10 shot .303 group keeping his excessive compulsive reloading standards with “NEW” components. Please notice the group size is much, much, much smaller in size.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...aytarget-1.jpg
If you want to go to the range and just make noise and shoot large groups and then pour boiling water down your barrel go ahead and buy surplus ammunition. I'll keep my high standards and make owning firearms a two part hobby....................shooting Enfields and other rifles with good quality ammunition I reloaded. ;)
Below is ballistic testing of new Winchester 30-06 ammunition, look at the extreme variation for pressures, now think about how much extreme variation surplus ammunition has and how it will effect accuracy with even the better lots of surplus ammunition. (older outdated ammunition that failed testing standards)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...06chart1-1.jpg
My surplus 7.62 X 39 ammunition is reserved for my spray and pray AK47 and SKS's. :yikes:
Surpmil
My Inspectors stamp which is my name was on everything I inspected, and what I inspected would be used by military personnel in the field. The troops in the field didn't get anything with my inspectors stamp on it that wasn't 110% serviceable.
The majority of surplus ammunition does not meet 100% of military testing standards, and is disposed of by selling it off. Hazardous ammunition that failed testing would be disposed of, and surplus ammunition falls into the category of just between ammunition that fails new testing standards and almost being hazardous. (Twilight Zone Ammo) :rolleyes:
Tumbling this ammunition could effect the burning rate of the powder and cause higher pressures with even MORE extreme pressure variations.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
Flattened primer on 8x57 surplus ammo from higher than normal pressure, this caused the bolt to be very hard to open.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
I reload because I want consistency and accuracy and the resulting small groups, tumbled surplus ammunition doesn't fit this category and never will.
Where did 7.62x39 come into the picture?
Mr. Horton's link above was discussing 7,62x51 (including Wolf) in a Non-Enfield. I've shot the ammo mentioned in an Enfield or three (L42a1s AND L1a1, Plus some Ishapore 2A1s). The L42a1s shoot some lots of British L2A2 ammo about 1 1/2 MOA or a bit better, so I'm pretty satisfied!
Is some surplus ammo absolute hammered dog poo? YES! But some is super fanatstic. Plus, some .folk REALLY don't need to be reloading...like me, right now-no time!
But,back to RJW's original topic, Mr. Horton, how do you recommend degreasing loaded ammo? My way is labor intensive- rubbing each one w/ a cloth- minimal solvent as required.
I would either use a dry terrycloth rag or a dish washer with a good pre-clean cycle. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...shwasher-1.jpg