I believe this is an AR-18 magazine still in the original envelope from 1969.
Note the "arrow" stamp on the envelope - any help on the identification of this magazine would be appreciated.
Printable View
I believe this is an AR-18 magazine still in the original envelope from 1969.
Note the "arrow" stamp on the envelope - any help on the identification of this magazine would be appreciated.
I believe that's correct. I had one in 1975 or so and that was the type of mag. The small slot for locking it into the rifle. It would also take the Colt mag of course.
I tried to find more info, but came up with this ...
"Sterling of England produced AR-180/AR-15 20, 30, and 40 round magazines. Some were made in alloy, and some were steel. They have magazine catch notches on both sides, a small one for the AR-180, and a large one for the AR-15.
Sterling also produced considerable quantities of 20 and 30 round
magazines, some of which are only notched for AR-180s, but most are also
notched to also fit AR-15's." This leads me to believe that Only Sterling of the UK produced mags for the AR-18.
Sounds funny to me but I know there were a few different mag makers for the US Military during the Vietnam War. In your pic it looks like the mag is aluminum alloy and just has a large notch for the AR 15 (M-16) and it does have a US mil spec number on the envelope.
The only AR18 mag I have ever seen or held was at a gun show in York, PA and was a steel mag made by Sterling.
I really don't have much else to offer you. You have probably have already done this but, what info is on the base plate of the mag.
I'm really looking forward to seeing more info posted on this one ... thanks
Tony, The parkerized magazine in the photo is steel and the base is not marked. There is a small slot on the right side too. Also have seen an identical magazine - only black-blue in color and steel.. The crimp of the floorplate is jut like the Sterling 40 rd magazine except for the hole location.
The early US 30 rd magazines for the M16 had the same type of curve.
Once the magazine is removed from the envelope, it is difficult to identify the manufacture
I am no expert. But have been collecting and observing original Armalite AR-180 products for some time. Here is my interpretation.
I believe you have a Costa Mesa contracted magazine. I say "contracted", because I have NO idea if the Costa Mesa facility that produced the weapons ever made the magazines? The may have simply contracted them out with a supplier? Obviously the early date would indicate a mag made just prior to manufacturing going to Howa of Japan. I have NEVER seen one in a military grade VOC paper package. WOW! These early magazines have NO identifying marks, and I am not sure why they choose to not mark them? I am unclear about magazines produced for Howa made rifles. I have never run across a NIB Howa 180 with all the factory supplied accessories.
The later, Sterling produced, mags have a longer engagement slot. Sterling mags have base plates that I.D. them. Be aware though, base plates can be switched out, and that can lead to some erroneous mag I.D.s if you aren't careful. You may find (if you have other manufactured models to test against) that your mag will not fit a Howa or Sterling. I have found that the the various manufacturers have small difference in mag slot length and all mags will not fit all rifles.
A note about those mags that ONLY have the AR-18/0 slot. It is mostly the 20 round early ALUMINUM mags (I believe made by Costa Mesa Armalite). All steel mags of 20, 30 and 40 made by Sterling or Costa Mesa Armalite have BOTH slots. That is, they have the AR-180 slot and the AR-15 slot. Another exception to the rule is the Thermold mags out there that are made for the AR-180. They will not have an AR-15 mag slot. I am unclear why Thermold just didn't incorporate BOTH mag slots into the same mag?
The steel Armalite mags have a very good reputation for reliability. Up until H&K high reliability mags hit the market, the steel Armalite mags had a enthusiastic following. This includes the Sterling made steel mags of all capacities. All this get's quite confusing, because unless you have been playing in this arena for 40 plus years, the crap mags put out by USA, and other inferior manufacturers, get confused easily by newer collectors.
Thanks for your thoughts about the AR-18 magazines. Some years ago I found a Mitchell Arms 75 rd drum, new in the box . The gunshop was clearing out all their magazines and I
bought the Mitchell drum, back then we called it the Tayor drum ? This drum had been sent to Firepower Inc in Maine for a modification and returned to the gunshop. This Mitchell drum was manufactured at Mitchell Arms, 116 E. 16 th St, Costa Mesa, CA 92627. The top part of this Mitchell drum is just like the late STERLING magazine. The box states: Fits Colt AR-15 ARMALITE AR-180/AR-18. The box also has another address: Mitchell Arms Inc US Sales Agency, 114 So Geneva St, Ithaca NY.
Dear RCS,
I have never heard of the connection with Mitchell and Armalite before this, but sure enough, they had a common address! Actually Armalite shows their address to be 118 East 16th St., Costa Mesa. The later Timberline Hawk, who had John McGerty ( I hope that is right?) as the proprietor, shows their address as 116 E. 16th St., Costa Mesa. Timberline Hawk was the distributor for all Armalite parts after the main company seemed to stop doing business under the name. Surely during their height, Armalite probably had a number of buildings in the area and possibly operated these as support operations. I wonder if that means they were indeed manufacturing their own mags, later to become Mitchell? I do recall those drum 75 round drum mags, which featured the AR-180 slot.
I am unsure when the 40 round mags came out? I have always associated them with either Sterling, or Federal. Sterlings were parked and Federals were blued. Federals worked fine, but some of the later 40 round mags that USA made looked like Federals, but were junk most of the time. That is what makes the aftermarket 40s so difficult to surmise. You just have to buy cautiously and try them. If they work, great! Sterlings of course are a bit pricey! I wonder if I backtrack, will Federal also be a Mitchell associate? I seem to recall they were from California.
I have included a couple of images. One just showing addresses on correspondence I have from past years, and one with an Armalite marked, 20 round aluminum mag, the other is an unmarked, steel, 30 round mag. As you can see, this Armalite 20 round mag has no accommodation for the AR-15, while the 30 does. This may have been an early marketing ploy, as Colt was now manufacturing the (Armalite) M-16 and supplying the US Government with 20 round mags only. While our guys were in Viet Nam facing AKs with 30 rounders, or even 40s? Could be that Armalite saw a need, and decided to produce a 30 round mag that could readily be used in the AR-15/M-16 in hopes of gaining recouped government sales? I am doing a bit of fanciful speculation, but it was after all a money making venture, so you do what seems expedient and financially viable.
I wish someone could put the whole Armalite story together in a pub. Does one exist?
Found an old file photo of the Mitchell drum, these are the only photos that I have seen to date! Would like to see some photos of the markings/mag catch.
The green plastic is original but not to the Colt SP1 (four digit) semi auto sporter. The owner was attempting to make the SP1 look early.
Also noticed that the back of the drum has a clear plastic see-through backplate.Attachment 15231Attachment 15232
Pardon my total ignorance, but who or what is the Richmond Corp.? They are identified on the wrapper as the maker, yet nobody has mentioned them even once.
Why the Arrow? Is this a standard marking for US equipment?
Just in observation, but the earliest Enfield X-60 series bullpups were based rather heavily on the AR-18.
Is there any connection here?
Come on, somebody, stomp on me. I might even learn something.
Also, the only Sterling-marked mag I ever saw for the AR-18 was a pretty steel 40-rounder.
Do not know anything about Richmond Corp or the red arrow ? that why I posted the photos in an attempt to find additinal data. These magazines are sterile !
Sterling produced 20, 30 and 40 round magazines for the AR-18/0 some have the addional cut for the AR-15, some do not ? They are marked on the floorplate.
Mitchell made the first attempt to adopt the AR-18 and AR-15 to use a drum magazine (75 rds). These drum magazines were all recalled for a factory modification and returned.
Thanks for bearing with me; I am understanding a bit more now.
One thing I do remember from that period was Stoner trying to interest the US military in the new rifle, which he said was sort of a product-improved M-16. One of the big selling-points was the interchangeability of the magazines. It was mentioned prominently in several articles in the gun mags of the time... but evidently they are not strictly interchangeable.
I hope the above tidbit excuses my treading upon thin ice.
Retired now with some spare time on my hands and ran across this post and hopefully I have something to contribute since I believe I have a sample of every AR-18 magazine of note barring USA mags and other undesirables. I can't see the photo of the milspec magazine package but my guess I have the same one and the sterile 30 rd parkerized steel mag that came in it. I'll speculate that the mag was probably mfg by ArmaLite in house. My guess is Federal and Mitchell were later independent spinoffs by former ArmaLite employees when they saw a market for aftermarket mags etc. I talked this over on the old AR180.com site and also discussed it with Pete Fleiss who has quite a bit of the ArmalIte documents/parts from the time John McGerty/Timberline Hawk shut down the shop. I was lucky enough to get some items from this period includeing some shop mags that were used for tests/trials/photos in manuals. A former Army special forces member that was a PD officer I knew served in Vietnam and claimed to have seen a few special forces members with AR-18 in Vietnam. Would it be possible that ArmaLite had the 30 rd parkerized steel mags available for trial along with the AR-18? I suspect that a small quantity of the 30 rd mags were sold by ArmaLite to LE and civilians for the AR-18/AR-180. Since a photo of the 30 rd mag is still up I'll post another photo of the milspec package.
Photos not sharp, I'll retake in am in sunlight.
These are a lot sharper/clearer. I'm guessing some of the printing (red) was done to identify the mfg of the polykraft package and the other printing (black) was addd by the mfg of the magazine to identify the contents/magazine. Any insight from members that are familiar with this packaging would be real helpful even if your not familiar with the AR-18/AR-180.
AmEngRifles and other interested members I did a Google search and found a company in Georgia that mfgs mil-spec packaging, Mil-Spec Packaging of Georgia. I was refered to a senior employee Bob that had been in the buisness forever. I described to him the poly kraft magazine package and the printing on the package. The printing in red is done by the mfg of the poly kraft paper, DAP Industries of Coumbus Georgia which is probably long out of buisness per Bob. Next the printing in black at the bottom that references the Richmond Corp. is the company that made the actual packages from the poly kraft paper supplied by DAP Industries. Both companies respectivly indicate that the material and package was mfg to US military specs current/required at the time of mfg in 1969. Lastly Bob was very helpful in explaining the printing under "Magazine Assembly, according to Bob A628-9047 indicates the magazine was mfg for the use of the US Army. According to Bob the magazine package was truely mil-spec for the period and I feel his info is highly reliable/expert. Considering the year it's highly unlikly I'll be able to trace the DWG. NO. A628-9047 on the net but I'll give it a try. Even if the package has no info on it that indicates it was directly connected to ArmaLite the M16-A15-AR180 marking leads me to believe that their has to be related to ArmaLite. I have never seen any aftermarket magazines packaged to this degree, mil-spec. My conjecture is that this unmarked AR180 magazine with mil-spec package was included with the AR-18 rifles that were evaluated around 1969 by the US Army. Since very few of these magazines/packages have surfaced over the years my feeling is they were mfg in very limited numbers and most either kept by the US Army, a few sold by ArmaLite/John McGirty to select buyers but never listed in a catalog and the magazines went unrecognizable as time went by due to no markings on the base plate and no packaging. I'd like to hear some feedback from members who could lead me in another direction if I'm off cource.
Here's my AR15/M16/AR18/AR180 sterile 30 round parkerized steel magazine that came in the mil-spec poly kraft package. I did some more reading, Black Rifle/web search and found that Colt had a 30 round alloy mag ready for production in late 1969/1970. ArmaLite had the AR18 ready for the second Army trials in late 1969 and later in 1970 for USAF tests. I'm sure ArmaLite was well aware of the DOD request that dated back to 1966 for a 30 round magazine and ArmaLite if smart would also have 30 rounders to supply for the tests. As for who mfg the ArmaLite magazines I'm 100% confident it was done in house. I have a 20 rd alloy "shop" mag with a sticker indicating it was sent to Howa/Japan to use as a sample for their production of their 20 rd magazines. In fact as far as I can see all three mfgs of the AR18/180 made their mags in house, Costa Mesa/Howa/Sterling. As for aftermarket mags etc probably Federal and Mitchell as I speculated were operated by former ArmaLite employees who took over some of the former unused Costa Mesa production facilities. The high quality of the Federal/Mitchell products is in stark contrast to the poor quality magazines offered by USA and a couple other aftermarket companies.
Attachment 37072Attachment 37073
Photos of the 75 round drum, there is a clear thick plastic back on the drum so that the user can view the cartridges. Most of these drums were sent back to the factory for a
modification and returned. Some drums had problems while some were excellent. I
believe these were the first drum magazines used on both the AR-15 and AR-18 series
RCS by all accounts that drum looks like it is very well built and today would be a real collectable. I also posted on AR15. re the sterile mag/package where I had a prior post on the same subject years ago.
Attachment 37133Attachment 37134Attachment 37135Attachment 37136
The very early AR-15 20 magazine had the small calibre stamping
Instructions from the 75 round drum
early pouch for the pre 1963 waffle magazines, I have also seen a four magazine pouch too
RCS I'll have to dig some to find pictures but I'm fairly certain Mitchell made a couple other accessories for the AR180 like a muzzle break, all high quality items. Not many of those waffle mags still floating around. I have some similar pouches for the 20rd mags, mine are rubberized, yours look to be canvas. Loaded up that 75rd Mitchell mag must of had some heft to it. I read some of my old notes on the M16/AR15/AR180 mag, with no markings on the baseplate it might of traveled to a few places in Southeast Asia where it wasn't supposed to be. I had some Mini14 20rd mags, verified factory mags, same thing no markings, allegedly intended for use in South America.
I know it's an old thread and this is my first post, but I thought those that replied to this thread might enjoy my find.
A few months back I was wandering around the York gun show in PA. Out of the corner of my eye I spotted a magazine in a dumpster of a display that had the AR-18 mag catch. I asked the guy to pull out the mag and found it was steel and parkerized. It also had the correct black AR-18 cut follower. However, the floor plate had no markings. Thinking I had a Sterling mag that someone swapped floor plates out on, I offered the guy ten bucks and he took it.
My memory failed me in that I forgot the Sterling mags had the hole punched in the side which this mag did not. I stripped and reparked the mag. I decided to do a little search on the interwebs when I came across this thread. Here are pics of my find - I think we now have two of these mags accounted for.Attachment 56071Attachment 56072Attachment 56073Attachment 56074Attachment 56075Attachment 56076
It is just like the NOS AR-18/180 magazine that I found in the envelope, it is not the Sterling. There are some 20 rd magazines like this 30 rd around tooAttachment 56077Attachment 56078
The Sterling bottom plate has a smaller hole and not near the detent to remove the plate
So do you concur with my assessment your mag and mine are of the same origin? I'm trying to instill doubt in myself because the odds of me finding one of these by mere chance out of the corner of my eye at a gun show seem awfully low.
Abacab,
It is ENTIRELY possible to find the magazine you did, in the manor you did. MOST people have NO idea what they are, will therefore sell very cheap. You have the same magazine that kobren and I reference.
I would love to find out more about these mags. I do not think they were made by Armalite, in house, because I never recall seeing any literature that promoted them. A company in business to make profit will usually advertise their products.
The fact that kobren found one in ORIGINAL packaging is just incredible! In 40+ years of collecting and looking at AR-180 and Armalite history, I have never laid eyes on one in packaging. If I owned it, I would never open it.
The 30rd unmarked parkerized steel mag pictured is genuine ArmaLite Costa Mesa CA and I'v located plenty of documentation with photos to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. If possible I'd like to see photos front and back of the complete polycraft wrapper that looks like it's in almost new condition. I'v seen photos of a couple of these mags still sealed in the wrapper and they all look identical. I'm seriously leaning towards ArmaLite mfg their 20 and 30rd mags in house and not by a subcontractor.
CIS in Singapore also did their own thing with a rifle having more than a passing resemblance to the AR-18.
Anyone have any clear data on the mags for these, especially the early ones?
I have an Armalite Costa Mesa Serial number in low 600's. I have had it for over 25 years. Rarely shot, has the Armalite proprietary scope. I also have the same magazine you are discussing and always wondered who made it.
I need to update this thread with a set of pictures. First off, thank you kobren for the valuable additions to this thread. It has helped me in a long search.
I have just purchased a new in wrapper early 30 round magazine for the M-16/AR-180 we have been reviewing. I think this is about the 4th mag I have come across in this style. This is the first one to have the kraft paper wrap. I paid a bit too much, but then again, it is all relative and this is the first one I have seen in a VERY long time. So price is fair.
I would like to include images of Sterling produced mags, because they seems to cause confusion at times. Sterling DID make a 30 round magazine in steel, just as they made a curve 20 and a curved 40. But once you see these, along with the original finish, you will be able to discern these from all others. All Sterlings have the manufacture's name on the base plate. There are a few small variations of the markings, but that leads down another road.
All Sterling mags and 20 round ARMALITE mags have the black plastic follower with a lowered bolt stop shelf. As far as I recall, and I need to find and inspect my "early-no name" steel 30's, like we are discussing, these did NOT come with the lowered shelf follower. If you have discovered otherwise, please let me know. I will add, that ANY mag, after all these years, could end up with a changed/replaced floor plate or follower. The mag displayed by Abacab that came from the gun show may have had it's follower replaced. I see it does have a follower with the appropriate 180 lowered shelf. If you didn't replace/modify the follower for use in the 180, you would end up with a locked open bolt and one round left in the mag. I used to file down or cut out the tab on M-16 followers that I modified for my 180's in earlier times.
While both the "no name" and Sterling steel 30 round magazines had "constant curves", not "compound curves" like the contract M-16 mags, they are of a different radius. Not by much, but it is evident when you place them on top of one another.
The one thing I find interesting about the nomenclature used on these poly kraft wraps is the reference to the AR-180 and NOT the AR-18. They do refer to the M16/AR-15, so I guess there was a strong enough recognition of the civilian market, they wanted to use those terms. Just interesting, if it was intended for military contracts alone, you would think they would have simply stamped them M16/AR-18. Something to ponder. As well, although a VERY MINOR point, is the way they spelled that out. It is as follows:
M16-AR-15-AR180
Most of the time, I consider that AR 180 is written in this way, "AR-180", with the dash between the letter and number. Small potatoes in the overall conversation.
OK, look for some photos in the not too distant future. This thread moves along SLOWLY! lol
---------- Post added at 01:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 PM ----------
I could see this. Aren't 30 round magazines featured in the original operator's manual? That would indicate a much earlier production date, as they had to supply those civilian 180s with Operators Manuals. The rifle hit the civilian market what year? 1969?Quote:
Originally Posted by kobren
Just reviewed two on line manuals posted at BigRix AR180s page. In the earlier manual, those sent with Costa Mesa rifles, no pictures of 30 round mags. In the later Sterling produced manuals, they feature their own manufactured 30 round mag in the back, under accessories. So no help there.