Very, Very early WW2 SA

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07-08-2010, 09:21 PM
Joe W

Very, Very early WW2 SA

based on serial number alone ( 422881 ) this would be Dec. 1941 but it could have been assembled a bit later. Note the short channel stock.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...arand017-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...arand030-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tchannel-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...GHSstock-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nofinish-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rearsnof-1.jpg
[IMG]http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e372/joewill421/Windagegroovessolidarrows.jpg[IMG]
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...tD353823SA.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...gasscrew-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...arand006-1.jpg
07-08-2010, 09:30 PM
Joe W

Is there a way to delete a thread. ??? I havn't posted pictures before and I screwed up. While adding another photo I mistakenly created two duplicate threads.
07-09-2010, 09:06 AM
RCS

Dec 1941 rifle

I could not see from the photos - but is there a small hole in the stock ferrule ?

Did you buy this rifle like this or was there any restoration ?
07-09-2010, 11:10 AM
Bob Womack

Hi!

I took care of your duplicate posts.

Bob
07-09-2010, 01:12 PM
Joe W

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCS

I could not see from the photos - but is there a small hole in the stock ferrule ?

Did you buy this rifle like this or was there any restoration ?

I am in N.C., the rifle in Florida. Looking at my data sheet, no hole in stock ferrule.

The rifle is just as I purchased it in 1991. Only two questions I have with the rifle is, 1. the rear sight cover is unmarked. I asked Bob Seijas about this and he answered " I would not change the sight cover, that has never been nailed down absolutely." The other thing, the cup over front sight screw has what looks like a fine saw cut completely across the cup. Looks like someone intended on removing the cup with a screwdriver, but the cup does not look like it had been removed. That always puzzeled me. Otherwise the rifle is 100 % correct.
The barrel is dated 12-41
07-09-2010, 07:39 PM
Rick B

Absolutely nothing wrong with that stock. The large wheel was on both long and short channeled GHS's. Also when most of these came back to the U.S and were sold in Hardware store I think they cleaned them up and stocks were swapped to all rifles. So long will be on late rifles and short in early. Hope this helps. Rick B
07-09-2010, 09:26 PM
Joe W

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick B

Absolutely nothing wrong with that stock. The large wheel was on both long and short channeled GHS's. Also when most of these came back to the U.S and were sold in Hardware store I think they cleaned them up and stocks were swapped to all rifles. So long will be on late rifles and short in early. Hope this helps. Rick B

Thanks Rick. I must add that this rifle is not a LL so I don't know that it ever left the U.S. I believe the rifles you are referring to are those LL rifles purchased by Sam Cummings (Interarmco), which contain the British proofs. When I stated that "it may have been assembled later" I just ment that serial number alone does not confirm assembly date. I have no problem with the fact the stock has a "short channel", as the MWO for the short channel was Nov. 1941 and the short channel stock could be correct on a rifle assembled in Dec. 1941.
07-10-2010, 02:09 PM
EdG

Hole in stock ferrule

When did the large hole in the stock ferrule first appear? Joe W's rifle appears to have the dimple which did not pierce the metal.
07-10-2010, 11:12 PM
RCS

stock ferrule

From checking data, it would appear that the first half of 1941, the SA stock ferrules were without holes. Sometime around Aug/Sept 1941 the small hole appeared.
Sometime around March 1942 the large hole ferrule is found in data sheets
Sometime around Aug 1942 the no hole ferrule is found in data sheets

There is a very small hole or punch mark but difficult to locate on data sheets,
any additional information from reliable data is welcomed. Easy to change stocks on rifles but few will go through the trouble of changing the ferrule - except in rebuild or restoration.

There is alot of overlap in data sheets concerning the ferrules,
07-11-2010, 09:05 AM
Wulf

That's an awesome Garand.
07-12-2010, 08:46 AM
Bill Hollinger

That is really sweetJoe. Thanks for sharing with us.
07-12-2010, 02:14 PM
Joe W

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger

That is really sweetJoe. Thanks for sharing with us.

Thanks Bill, wish I had it here in N.C. so I could take some better photos. Maybe when I return home I will take some pictures showing more detail and drawing numbers and post them. Joe
07-12-2010, 02:19 PM
Joe W

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCS

From checking data, it would appear that the first half of 1941, the SA stock ferrules were without holes. Sometime around Aug/Sept 1941 the small hole appeared.
Sometime around March 1942 the large hole ferrule is found in data sheets
Sometime around Aug 1942 the no hole ferrule is found in data sheets

There is a very small hole or punch mark but difficult to locate on data sheets,
any additional information from reliable data is welcomed. Easy to change stocks on rifles but few will go through the trouble of changing the ferrule - except in rebuild or restoration.

There is alot of overlap in data sheets concerning the ferrules,

RCS, thanks for the helpful information. Maybe Rick B. can shed a bit more light on this subject as he has observed about a zillion stocks.
07-12-2010, 04:55 PM
RCS

Dec 1941 Rifle

Joe, More data would be nice(especially for people who collect data sheets on early pre war rifles) such as your bolt heat lot, type of firing pin, polished bolt face etc.

I really do not know if your rifle is original or not - it looks like it could be original- but remember that back in 1975, Rock Island Armory was in the trade-in program with the NRA.
For around $21 and your old M1 receiver (welded stuff not allowed) you received a like new or as collectors would say "mint" M1 receiver with barrel. I had a friend in Texas that got a Aug 1941 barrel and receiver and another friend in Minn that got a 405xxx with S-A 12 41 barrel. Also saw an early 1943 barrel/receiver, barrel had a TE of 1.0. None of these barrels had chrome on the gas ports.
Some Lend Lease rifles had their parts "harvested" to build-up "correct" period rifles and a late 1941 SA rifle in excellent condition was worth more than the Lend Lease.

Robert
07-12-2010, 05:24 PM
musketshooter

I have 394259. About the same condition as yours. Happy to have it.
07-12-2010, 06:11 PM
RCS

data

I made a data sheet from 394052 and 391564 about twenty years ago
07-12-2010, 07:30 PM
Joe W

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCS

Joe, More data would be nice(especially for people who collect data sheets on early pre war rifles) such as your bolt heat lot, type of firing pin, polished bolt face etc.

I really do not know if your rifle is original or not - it looks like it could be original- but remember that back in 1975, Rock Island Armory was in the trade-in program with the NRA.
For around $21 and your old M1 receiver (welded stuff not allowed) you received a like new or as collectors would say "mint" M1 receiver with barrel. I had a friend in Texas that got a Aug 1941 barrel and receiver and another friend in Minn that got a 405xxx with S-A 12 41 barrel. Also saw an early 1943 barrel/receiver, barrel had a TE of 1.0. None of these barrels had chrome on the gas ports.
Some Lend Lease rifles had their parts "harvested" to build-up "correct" period rifles and a late 1941 SA rifle in excellent condition was worth more than the Lend Lease.

Robert

Robert,

I sent you an EMail. If you are interested, send me your email address I will send you a data sheet

In the meantime, Bolt D28287-2A RE4A, ( HOLE IN REAR OF RIGHT BOLT LUG ), Firing pin - Round, Blue Black, Extractor - blue, TE = 1 MW = 0+, 12-41 barrel
Gas Port is NOT chrome plated. I had always thought the rifle may have been substancially original with possibly a few parts added but never really sure. What you say is quite possible. If someone built this rifle up from the barrel and receiver he did it while parts were reasonable and available. All the parts show very little if any wear.
07-18-2010, 08:21 PM
Emri

3 Attachment(s)

When were the LL rifles............

....sold in hardware stores?? I got this one in a hardware store in 1976 or there abouts. I recently replaced the stock on it. It was a very nice rifle over all that hadn't been monkeyed with but for the stock. It was about the ugliest piece of birch you could imagine.

Attachment 14190

Attachment 14189

Attachment 14191

Thanks,

Emri
07-19-2010, 07:53 PM
Joe W

Nice rifle. I would think that they were first sold in the mid to late 1950s by different outlets. Those marked in the barrel chamber area, such as yours, were imported in the mid 1950's by "Interarmsco" of Alexandria, Va. and were part of the first group of M1's purchased from Great Britain by Sam Cummings. I had posted a photo of an ad dated Apr. 1959, by "Winfield Arms" of L.A. Calif., selling LL rifles for $ 97.50. Back in the day those 1941 /42 rifles WITHOUT the British proofs were more popular with collectors and parts were taken from the LL guns to make non LL guns correct. Maybe that is what became of your stock. Or sometime prior to 1976 when you purchased the rifle, a prior owner sold off the stock. He may have just been a shooter and that "piece of birch" was just fine for his needs. The money he got for the stock would have bought him a bit of ammo.
07-19-2010, 10:16 PM
Bob Seijas

"Rock Island Armory was in the trade-in program with the NRA. For around $21 and your old M1 receiver (welded stuff not allowed)"

Heh, heh, we exchanged welded receivers several times, got back some honeys. Returned receivers were destroyed. I know a guy who put two halves together with Bondo and sprayed it black -- they took it :)