Need help/advice on a wandering POI problem

I have a '44 Long Branch, 2-groove, which is in excellent condition. It wears a PH5 and FS22A. It has proven to be very consistant, and with practice, I have been improving my group sizes.

Over the past couple of hundred rounds or so, it has developed a problem in that the POI drops as the barrel warms. Today I conducted a test at 100 yds, bench firing 4 strings of 5 rounds with negligible time between each, allowing the barrel to warm progressively.

The results of the 4 strings are:
- string 1 - 1", dead centre (well chuffed!)
- string 2 - 1.75", 2" low (and slightly to the left, but that was probably me)
- string 3 - 2.25", 4" low
- string 4 - 2", 6" low

Whilst details will have been affected by my use of iron sights, and my less than stellar technique, I think the trend is clear. I am very pleased with the group sizes, but that drifting downwards... It used to be very consistant vertically.

The Screw, Guard, Trigger, Front has not worked loose, and is still snug.
The Screw, Guard, Trigger, Rear is likewise.
The Butt has not loosened.
The Barrel will pass a .303 gauge, but a .304 gauge won't even start, so the barrel is not shagged out.
The muzzle has about the requisite 4 lbs of pressure, or at least it does not seem any different from when the rifle was consistant.
The Parker Hales are rock-solid.
I tried to make everything as consistant as possible from string to string.

To sum up, I can't find anything that has changed, or is loose.

I am at a loss as to what to investigate or twiddle next. :banghead:

I'd really appreciate any suggestions/help/ideas/informed opinion.

Cheers.

Wandering zeroes or changing POI in Lee-Enfields generally is down to the bedding, given that the rifle was set-up properly in the first place (as yours doubtless was, your previous groups proving this).

Have you checked The Damned Crack? It starts right at the thinnest part of the fore-end, right where the trigger protrudes downward and there is very little wood at all and it is responsible for more lousy shooting with SMLEs and Number 4s than 3/4 of all the ropey barrels in existence.

If that is the problem, the cure is easy: spread things apart gently and squirt in a little dab of epoxy, clamp it the way you want it and leave it 24 hours. When the epoxy is completely solid, unclamp, trim away any excess and reassemble the rifle. It will NOT break here again.

I could be 'way off-base here, but that would be my first suspicion in such a case as you describe: sudden deterioration of shooting with a previously-excellent rifle.

Good luck!

1. Check that the front handguard is not creeping forward under recoil, thus fouling the foresight assembly - this is the prime cause of vertical POI movements in a No4. This is why you often see staked front bands on a No4.

2. Apart from the "down pressure" at the muzzle, ensure that the barrel has free vertical movement inside the barrel channel. Often a "high point" inside one of the handguards is the culprit - the wood coming into contact with the barrel as the rifle heats up.

3. Check the barrel channel itself for high points - sometimes just a lump of old cosmoline. One method is to dust the channel and handgaurds with talcum powder - blow off the surplus - then reassemble the rifle with the metal parts lightly oiled. Move the barrel up and down to simulate firing shots, then dissemble the rifle to see if there are any obvious touching points.

And don't forget that shooters are notorious for 'chasing the zero' around the target................ Stop, have a break and then let someone else do a check shoot/zero. As Armourers, with hundreds of rifles to check for accuracy, we'd often unknowingly fall into that trap

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunderbox

1. Check that the front handguard is not creeping forward under recoil, thus fouling the foresight assembly - this is the prime cause of vertical POI movements in a No4. This is why you often see staked front bands on a No4.

2. Apart from the "down pressure" at the muzzle, ensure that the barrel has free vertical movement inside the barrel channel. Often a "high point" inside one of the handguards is the culprit - the wood coming into contact with the barrel as the rifle heats up.

3. Check the barrel channel itself for high points - sometimes just a lump of old cosmoline. One method is to dust the channel and handgaurds with talcum powder - blow off the surplus - then reassemble the rifle with the metal parts lightly oiled. Move the barrel up and down to simulate firing shots, then dissemble the rifle to see if there are any obvious touching points.

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Thunderbox

Is your saying "down pressure" a difference between British and American English like saying anti-clockwise and counter clockwise. In American English the fore end tip is pushing "upward" on the barrel and thus called "up pressure".

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ngpoints-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...gpoints2-1.jpg

Thunderbox I mean no disrespect but I have read this from other British forum members also and it is a little confusing on this side of the pond.

As an example the American Remington 700 standard bolt action rifle has 3 to 9 pounds of "up pressure" at the fore end tip of its stock. This means the same as the above section from the 2002 Canadian No.4 manual, and the wood stock is pushing upward on the barrel.

NOTE: Before I wrote this Thunderbox I ran out to my truck and made sure the steering wheel was on the left hand side of the cab.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

I had a No.4 Mk2 about three years ago which did this to the point of a 4 or 5 inch drop at 50 yards. Never found ANYTHING wrong with it, I even shot it without foreend and handguards (that REALLY hurt my shoulder) and it still dropped POA as it warmed up over about 30 shots then stayed there until I left more time between shots when it started to rise again. Came to the conclusion it was a metallurgical thing.

First and foremost, thanks to you all for the input.

Smellie, very interesting about the crack, I didn't know it was so (in)famous as to have its own name! That is one for the old memory banks. I looked and looked, but can find no evidence of a crack anywhere. I definitely see your point about how that would be a big factor.

Thunderbox:
1) Unfortunately, I spaced on this one when setting about the disassembly, but I did notice when I first reassembled it that the front handguard cap was touching the foresight block (I don't have a protector because of the PH sight). I relaxed the band screws, pressed the handguard to the rear, and re-tightened. That leaves it with a small gap and its cap is now flush with the stock cap and leaves a small but noticeable gap between the caps and the sight block. The handguards are both solid, and I can't make them shift at all with the band screws snugged down. I don't think that was the problem, because the paint on the band is unmarked, but I can't be certain. Let's hope I improved things. I'll certainly keep an eye on it during shooting, in case of any forwards movement.

As for 2) and 3), all I managed with talc and oil was a mess! However, I did notice that the wood in the stock channel has only got that "incredibly smooth and blackened almost like a mirror" polished look showing an excellent silhouette of the bottom of the action at the rear, and maybe a quarter inch wide band almost a couple of inches from the front - just inside the rear of the cap. I can run a slip of paper all the way under the rest of the barrel. The rear handguard has no evidence of touching the barrel. The front handguard has a slight "polished" area just about opposite the one on the stock, about level with the rear of the cap. Would that be seen as a problem? The barrel must be contacting it on firing. Might that be it? I can't think how to change that, unless I increase the downward pressure of the barrel, or should I scrape out some of the wood on the underside of the front handguard so the barrel can, as it were, jump higher?

Captain L, thank you for the reminder. I'm pretty sure I was keeping a consistant POA, at least that was foremost in my mind during the test. However, I will pay special attention to that on my next trip.

Newcastle, please let it not be as you relate. I'd be devastated if such an accurate and reliable (and pretty) No.4 goes terminally useless. It'd just about break my heart.


I'll be most interested in any views on relieving the wood on the underside of the front handguard.

Whether or not I adjust the handguard, I'll also re-do the test at the weekend, always welcome an excuse to get some rounds downrange.

Thanks again to all, and any further guidance is sincerely welcomed.

Cheers All for the help.

Another small point GF. When we were doing them, we'd do it from the bench in the shoulder but if there was a problem rifle, we'd put it in the Enfield/mechanical rest to shoot it. But even here, it was always sighted in by eye. And humans err........... and human eyes lie sometimes!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Edward Horton

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ngpoints-1.jpg

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Edward,

Thanks indeed for this excellent picture. In reference to it, I am pretty sure that points A, B, C & D are correct, but only the left-most 1/2 inch or so of point E. Also a similar place of contact appears on the front handguard (left-most 1/2 inch or so of point E).

I'm more worried/concerned/interested in how a really nicely performing rifle can so suddenly go bad to the point of uselessness, without at least some physical sign. Everything looks the same as it was, and the bedding points are as before, even if not quite the spec as above.

Does that seem illogical? Don't know what to do next.

Cheers.

gravityfan

Try these two checks, you might have a little wood shrinkage which changed your bedding forces. First tighten the forward trigger guard and mark the location of the screw head.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP2145-1.jpg

Next take the trigger guard off and remove the forward trigger guard screw bushing or collar, remove it completely and set to the side.

Wood shrinkage effects the bushing length and bedding forces.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...kscrew2a-1.jpg

Now resemble the trigger guard minus the bushing and re-tighten the trigger guard screw. If the screw rotates or turns past your original marks on your trigger guard you have wood shrinkage or wood crush and the bushing is too long.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP2146-1.jpg

Next take a set of feeler gauges and see if one fits between the very rear of the fore stock and the receiver socket.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP0921-1.jpg

The rear of the stock should be touching equally on the left and right side of the socket. It does not have to be touching 100% of its area but it is very important it is touching on both sides and the bedding forces are equal.

Below the rear draws area controls the "tightness" of the rear of the stock and the forward section of the draws should "push" the very rear of the stock into contact with the receiver socket.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...awsareab-1.jpg

Below an example of only a small portion of the right touching the receiver socket. (bright shiny area)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MGP3416b-1.jpg

The first thing I would do if you have any of these problems is give your wood furniture or stock a good long drink of RAW linseed oil to see if the wood will re-hydrate and swell. (re-moisturize the wood)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nseedoil-1.jpg

Let us know if you find any thing wrong.

All the information in the world is written in books, and all you have to do is read. (RTFM) ;)

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https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Image16-1.jpg
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gravityfan, I suggest a good session with either boiled linseed oil or raw linseed oil, inside and out. I learned for myself about how oddly the wood can deform as it drys out and shrinks. There maybe a little fiddling to be done afterwards.

Brad

I would like to add a little the Bradtx posting, if you are an American much of our Boiled Linseed oil is toxic due to chemical additives. Canadian and British BLO is not toxic because it is still made the old fashion way by actually heating or boiling the oil.

For the Americans here in our forum if you go to a Craft Store you can buy oil painting grade raw linseed oil and BLO that is non toxic that is strained and purified. (will not cause mold growth)

Below, this is 100% pure raw linseed oil that you will find in the oil painting area and is non toxic and can be applied bare handed.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nseedOil-1.jpg

Linseed Oil
Finest quality purified alkali refined linseed oil, for us with artists’ oil colors. Improves flow, increases gloss. This product may be added directly to Artists Oil Color. It is recommended linseed oil be pre-diluted with Pure Gum Spirits of Turpentine, Grumtine™, or Odorless Paint Thinner.

Below, Stand Oil is real actual Boiled Linseed oil, and is also non-toxic and won't make your genitalia fall off if applied by hand. :rolleyes:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tandoil1-1.jpg

Stand Oil
Polymerized linseed oil made by heating pure linseed oil to high temperatures in the absence of air. High-viscosity, non-yellowing. Intended for use with oil painting mediums, as well as diluted with conventional solvents. Improves fluidity of paint and assists in laying down (smoothing out) brush strokes. Slow drying and improves dry paint film flexibility. May be diluted with any conventional oil painting solvents.

And thanks to Bradtx for the back up posting on oiling the stock.. ;)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...phstexas-1.gif

Finally an accurate map, Ed! :beerchug:

Brad

Ever mindful of Mr. Horton's warnings on US produced Boiled Linseed Oil, yesterday I stumbled across a reasonably priced (about US$8) quart can of BLO that has NO "evil" additives! Even their MSDS is good, so no worries.

Just thought it might prevent a bit of sticker shock if you have ever seen what the "artsy" oils retail at.

Made by Klean-Strip in Knoxville, TN, which I reckon is a good thing.

Link below:

http://www.kleanstrip.com/

To find the Linseed Oil, go to their products button, then choose the "thinners and solvents" button.

Mr. jmoore

"Artsy" raw linseed oil found at craft stores are highly refined linseed oils that have all impurities and fatty acids removed, these impurities and fatty acids are what causes mildew and mold growth.

These "artsy" linseed oils were never applied to the Enfield rifle while in military service. BUT they do come in small little itsy bitsy bottles and are handy to use. Also these artsy little itsy bitsy bottles would even fill the need of the fussy Michelangelo types when painting the Sistine Chapel or re-oiling an Enfield stock.

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On top of this Boiled Linseed oil was NEVER used on the Enfield Rifle, as a side note I also have manuals from the 1970s stating that RAW linseed was used on the American M14 and BAR rifles.

Trust me, during my excessive compulsive linseed oil testing phase, Clean Strip BLO was investigated, researched and NEVER mentioned in any of my postings.

Please show me any British or Commonwealth Enfield manual or publication where you are told to use Boiled Linseed Oil on your Enfield rifle.

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You don't put boiled linseed oil in a heated hot dip tank without this oil turning into a thick Jello like substance.

The majority of bedding problems our Enfield rifles have is because they were not re-oiled monthly with RAW linseed oil and the wood shrank as the wood dehydrated.

The untouched Enfield below went through a FTR in 1953 and had raw linseed oil applied to it and NOT BLO.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6641-1.jpg

The dark spots (freckles) you see were caused by the impurities in the raw linseed oil, the "artsy" oil will not let this happen because it is so highly refined and filtered.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6638-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6633-1.jpg

The Clean Strip BLO will seal the wood and make it more water proof than RAW linseed oil, BUT it will need to have the shine knocked down with 0000 steel wool. Using BLO will make it far harder to apply successive coats of linseed oil that will sink deeply into the wood and keep it hydrated.

Below and forgive the small photo, pure raw unfiltered cold pressed linseed oil on the left with the impurities laying in the bottom of the jar. On the right is refined and filtered raw linseed oil with ALL the impurities removed. (the "artsy" linseed oil)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tein_oil-1.jpg

The above message was brought to you by the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Enfield Rifles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Edward Horton

The majority of bedding problems our Enfield rifles have is because they were not re-oiled monthly with RAW linseed oil and the wood shrank as the wood dehydrated.

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I'm sorry Ed, but I think you are mistaken in this. I see no evidence whatsoever in the majority of rifles that bedding problems are the result of wood shrinkage from lack of oil or other agent. In fact I rarely see much evidence of wood shrinkage at all - on the contrary, its remarkable how many very old rifles have incredibly tight stock fit. Enfields were of course stocked using naturally seasoned or kiln-dried wood, thus the wood was de facto pre-shrunk anyway. In fact one of the properties of Linseed oil is that it appears to soak wood without causing any expansion or structural alteration. IMHO, bedding problems most commonly arise from wear and tear (especially in the draws) or poor maintenance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunderbox

I'm sorry Ed, but I think you are mistaken in this. I see no evidence whatsoever in the majority of rifles that bedding problems are the result of wood shrinkage from lack of oil or other agent. In fact I rarely see much evidence of wood shrinkage at all - on the contrary, its remarkable how many very old rifles have incredibly tight stock fit. Enfields were of course stocked using naturally seasoned or kiln-dried wood, thus the wood was de facto pre-shrunk anyway. In fact one of the properties of Linseed oil is that it appears to soak wood without causing any expansion or structural alteration. IMHO, bedding problems most commonly arise from wear and tear (especially in the draws) or poor maintenance.

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Thunderbox

What you see on your side of the pond is quite different from what I have seen the last six years studying Century Imports on this side of the pond.

If you don't keep the wood properly oiled it WILL shrink and I can say this for curtain from looking a what I believe were primarily Enfield rifles coming from Turkey that never had a British Armourer lay hands on them.

My wooden deck and the Imported Enfield rifles I carefully inspected and looked at tell no lies.

Below, when wood dries out it shrinks as the gaps in my wooden deck show below.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...riedwood-1.jpg

Also when you re-oil the fore stock and the draws area tightens up this also tells me something.

Thunderbox I mean no disrespect in what I said above but there is a good chance we are both right in our findings of the Enfields we have looked at.

My main point here Thunderbox is you should oil the stock with raw linseed oil BEFORE deciding the stock is a loose fit and before making bedding adjustments. As an example cork sheets under the barrel tip or bedding your Enfield with beer cans and credit cards when oiling the stock just might fix your problems.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../119ufm8-1.jpg

Below is a 1950 unissued Canadian Long Branch rifle I purchased from Brian Dick, it has a slight wood shrinkage problem. The first thing I'm going to do is give the stock a long drink of raw linseed oil before even thinking about shimming any part of the draws.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP0921-1.jpg

Raw linseed oil will re-hydrate the dry wood in the stock and cause the wood to swell or enlarge.

Ed, great map and remember many many years ago we had a battle with our now "best friends" and burned your White House. Thankfully you did forgive us for this but I constantly hear you had a plan to invade Canada during the 60' thur the 90's. Would that mean you would have invaded yourselves first?

:lol:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by enfield303t

Ed, great map and remember many many years ago we had a battle with our now "best friends" and burned you White House. Thankfully you did forgive us for this but I constantly hear you had a plan to invade Canada during the 60' thur the 90's. Would that mean you would have invaded yourselves first?

:lol:

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Actually enfield303t that is a rumor the Canadian Government started to cover your own covert Canadian plans for invading the United States. Please look at the map below, all areas marked with a red Tim are now considered Canadian territory. (half the north east U.S. has been taken over)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...09091900-1.gif

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mhortons-1.jpg

We Americans are not fighting to regain this territory because the coffee and donuts are sooooo good.

(your beer ain't half bad either) ;)

Ed you are the first to notice what we have been doing for the last few years. My inside information is that once we get you and all your American buddies "hooked" on Tim's we are going to give you the ultimatum to "surrender" or we will "cut off" all your coffee and donughts. Now that it is in the open we will have to change our plans drastically. :beerchug:

Here's an update on the problem. Thanks again for all contributions, and an interesting discussion on the merits/demerits of various types of Linseed Oil.

Scary to think of all the time I've used Ace Hardware toxic BLO. I guess what the ravages of time have failed to do to my nuts, Ace will have completed!

Edward, I found the exact same brand of LO at the artsy craftsy store as per your photo. Thanks for that. I have used it repeatedly on the stock, and it seems to go on a lot better, and give a nicer result. Must be the removal of the fatty bits as you describe. I think that although it is more expensive, it is worth the difference for the better results.

Smellie, you were bang on. I don't know how I missed it on first inspection, but there indeed was what I assume to be the Damned Crack. Vertically down the rear face of the stock, just slightly left of centre. As you said, where the wood is at its thinnest due to the trigger channel.

So I used a previously reliable wood glue to bond it together. Quick range trip. 8" vertical movement. Back home and strip the rifle - the crack had opened up.

So I took the advice and used an Epoxy. Thoroughly cleaned and degreased first, forced as much into the crack as I could, clamped it and cleaned it up the next day. Quick range trip, only for a repeat performence. It has opened again.

I can't think how I can bond it any better than my attempt with the Epoxy. It is almost as if it needs some cross-reinforcing. I'd hate to do that, it is all still nice and standard (except for the crack).

Has anyone any helpful hints so that I can make the repair last?

Thanks again to all.

Cheers.

One drama when gluing wood that's been previously oiled is that your adhesive bonds to the surface oils rather than the wood. Now, in order to make repairs you will have to remove not only the old oils (not terrifically difficult) but the glue and epoxy as well (very difficult!). Might be time for an internal splice to bridge the offending area.



BTW, Mr. Horton, neither do I care for several properties of BLO on gunstocks, but it is rather more available, and it gets used for many other things. There's more than a few agricultural implements about for which its dandy, and it's particularly good for axe handles and such, esp. after it cures a while. Anyway, the lack of additives is what got my attention after reading your previous warnings.

My ancient supply of Sherwin Williams RLO is about gone, however the knothead at the local S-W store didn't even know what linseed oil was, much less that is was a product of their's...

Gravity fan, you've JUST explained to all why there is such as thing as an 'Ishy Screw', invented by the British and thereafter adopted by the Indians and hated by the remainder of the world of Lee Enfield collectors.

To do a proper repair, forget about epoxy this that and the other and either use the big Ishy Screw OR clean off, peg and glue it. The method had been well used by many generations of British Army Armourers and a pictorial article has been written in the past for you to follow.

But, before you do, take a few pics and show the remainder of the forumers how you did it and how easy it is

The fore-end of an SMLE has a higher proportion of the total mass than the original long lee thus loading the locating draws under recoil often causing damage.
If the stock is damaged and loose in this area no amount of gluing will fix the problem as the front trigger guard screw will prise the stock apart as it moves foreward under recoil.
Repairing the damaged area that bears on the sear mount lugs on the reciever is the only cure.
Lithgow rifles with their softer stocks were usually reinforced with copper blocks in this area.Attachment 14977

The Ishy Screw, and the front trigger guard screw - wouldn't they relate to problems in front of the trigger guard?

My split/crack is on the very rearmost face of the stock, that face which is against the wrist.

I can't see how there is enough wood there to put in a screw or peg. Isn't that why there is an external tie strap on the Mk.1s, there not being enough wood for an internal device to hold lateral pressure?

I apologise if I am mis-describing or confusing my descriptions. I'll see if I can dig out the old camera and post a piccy.

Cheers

Considering the No.4 Mk.2 has NO wood in that area, a small split is unlikely to create an 8 MOA POI shift.
Still, if you want to make a repair, there's been a few pictorial threads done. See some of Louthepou's work on the Restorer's Corner Forum ( https://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=96) on this site. Also, I believe Edward Horton and Bigduke6, and some other whose names I forget (sorry) have similar photos and repair descriptions.

I agree with JM there............. That area could easily be repaired by the insertion of a hard wood patch, pegged in place and made good. In fact, from memory, couldn't you insert a wood patch internally right up to and including the draws? If it was mine, and original, that's what I'd be thinking about

I'm not sure that the issue isn't being a bit over-complicated; most No4 Mk1s have a minor crack in the rear stock, and it has no effect on shooting performance. POI movement on warming is usually just a symptom of a minor barrel channel/ handguard obstruction - most commonly the front handguard fouling the foresight protector - and not some sort of major receiver bedding problem or perceived BLO starvation.

"I did notice when I first reassembled it that the front handguard cap was touching the foresight block (I don't have a protector because of the PH sight). I relaxed the band screws, pressed the handguard to the rear, and re-tightened. That leaves it with a small gap and its cap is now flush with the stock cap and leaves a small but noticeable gap between the caps and the sight block."

Did you re-test the rifle after this adjustment - did the error persist?

If you don't have a foresight protector fitted, then there should be a distinct gap between the foresight block and the handguards. Is your foresight block correctly pinned to the barrel? Sometimes the pin is omitted when target sights are swapped over, and it may be that the block itself is set too far back.

jmoore, you make a vary valid and interesting point. Maybe this split has been there all along and I am grasping at straws. I am desperate to find out why the rifle suddenly and catastrophically changed its behaviour. As per all the above posts, I can't find anything else wrong.

Peter, that's an interesting idea, but beyond my meagre (read: crappy) woodworking skills. I do have some spare fore-ends, maybe I could try to follow your articles on stock bedding by fitting a new one to this action. That would be a most interesting project, and I have hard copies of your articles; many thanks for writing and sharing those.

Thunderbox, sad to say that it is all too repeatable. After the wood glue fix attempt, it must have split again imemdiately (if that is what is causing the problem), giving a narrow vertical descending 8" string of holes. After the Expoy repair attempt, the first 4 were reasonably consistant, then the rest staggered downwards over the full 8". I assumed this was because the repair lasted for the first few rounds, then split again. I have also let it all cool off to ambient, and repeated with exactly the same results. No question - 8" drop as it warms over 20 rounds.

The front block is pinned, and I have been keeping an eye on the gap between the front handguard and the block. The woodwork is all nicely solid, and doesn't move around.

I guess I put my hopes on the split in the stock causing the problem, because for a couple of years, this rifle has done consistant, POI at POA, 2" or smaller groups. Then suddenly this behaviour starts. I assumed that it must be some catastrophic, or at least noticeable, change or failure that had occurred. The split in the wood is the only thing that I can find that appears "wrong". Other than that, I'm stumped. Nothing else seems to have suddenly changed.

Cheers again to all for the input. Thanks for helping. Any further ideas that I can try? Changing the stock sounds favourite at the moment.

If you have a spare, go ahead and try it out. Don't change anything else that doesn't require it for a correct fit, and see what happens. At least you'll have some more to go on.

Other thoughts-

Have you checked your fore stock tip up-pressure at both the start and finish of the string?

Also, the nature of the stringing suggests that your dramas are either in the barrel itself, or in the front end of the rifle, not the back, as it seems heat influenced. The crack in the back would seem to me to add randomness to the situation, not a repeatable phenomenom(enomenom).

The rear sight isn't one of those sheet metal jobs, is it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

If you have a spare, go ahead and try it out. Don't change anything else that doesn't require it for a correct fit, and see what happens. At least you'll have some more to go on.

Other thoughts-

Have you checked your fore stock tip up-pressure at both the start and finish of the string?

Also, the nature of the stringing suggests that your dramas are either in the barrel itself, or in the front end of the rifle, not the back, as it seems heat influenced. The crack in the back would seem to me to add randomness to the situation, not a repeatable phenomenom(enomenom).

The rear sight isn't one of those sheet metal jobs, is it?

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Mr. jmoore

The "rear" of the Enfield fore stock at the draws area controls vertical stringing, if the draws area is loose the fore stock can rock or pivot at the forward trigger guard screw. Meaning low or very little up pressure at the fore end tip or inconsistent up pressure at the fore end tip due to bedding shifts.

Below, up pressure is controlled and adjusted at the "rear" of the fore stock in the draws area.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...umpoint1-1.jpg

On the Enfield rifle a loose fore stock causes vertical stringing and a loose butt stock causes horizontal stringing.

Below, top photo, loose fitting draws area and a trigger guard bushing that is too long, bottom photo tight fitting draws area and proper length trigger guard bushing. All these areas are in the back of the fore stock or are you going to "fix" this by putting cork under the barrel at the fore end tip like someone else we know. :rolleyes:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../prepost-1.jpg

Points taken, Mr. Horton. :)

What I meant to say was that the crack alone, at the very rear of the fore stock, itself is not likely to cause the progressive 8 MOA shift. However, as you note, the entire "package" may be out of spec.

I still think the downward shift during the "heat-up" phase is a major clue. Gravityfan does note, i think, that once warmed, the POI shift more or less stops. I'm thinking poor overall bedding or some drama in the barrel itself, leaning heavily toward the first choice. Other likely suspects seem to have been ruled out...

Y'all have fun, now. Time for me to go home and sleep!

As a side note to the photos posted above showing vertical stringing, this was my first Enfield and a Century import which came from Turkey. The wood was very dry and inspections over several years showed that many Century Enfield stocks were extremely dry. These Turkish Enfields never had a British armourer touch them and the maintenance was not up to British military standards.

Also on a wooden stocked rifle it can be bedded to perfection and your hand loads have it grouping tightly to perfection. You can then go out to the range six months later when the temperature and humidity have changed and the rifle groups and be much larger or left or right of center.

You also can not rule out the old surplus ammunition that is being used which can have much larger than normal fluctuations in chamber pressure and velocity which can greatly effect group size.

From my experience the majority of accuracy problems on the Enfield rifle are bedding related caused by lack of TLC from a trained armourer. The manuals state that issued Enfield rifles were inspected four times per year, three mini visual inspections and one complete tear down inspection.

You are now your Enfields best friend and Armourer and here is something else to check. The receiver sides should not be touching or exerting side pushing forces. One manual I have states the sides of the receiver should have .010 clearance between the receiver and stock.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...es2pg051-1.jpg

Also constant steady up pressure can change and vary with humidity, please look at the shims added in the photo and drawing below.

The shims added below help keep a constant up pressure at the fore end tip, they were added to the National Canadian rifles used in competition and also on the pictured Australian range rifle.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...theshima-1.jpg

These shims prevent the rear of the fore stock from moving upward and the corresponding loss or decrease in up pressure at the fore end tip.

Know thy rifle...........................and read the manuals. (RTFM)

Oy!, Gravityfan! Did you ever sort the POI shift?