No1 Mk I***

How much could I expect to pay for a complete, matching and correct No 1 Mk I***? I know of one priced at $1,300.00 and another at $1,100.00 . Both are in Very Good condition with minor dents and scratches in the stocks and all matching numbers. Bores are also very good. I've seen one of this type sell for just under $1,000.00 and wondered if the one that's priced at $1,300.00, which is the best conditioned one, is a bit too high in price, or is acceptable considering that they aren't making them anymore. I'd keep it of course and wouldn't be looking for any profit over what I'd be paying for it. Thanks, Fred G.

Around here (South Florida) they rarely come up for sale, but I did buy one at a gunshow around 4 years ago. All matching and in very good condition - I paid $650.

To me, you pay what you have to to fill the hole in the collection. Just be 100% sure that it's original before you lay out a lot of your own hard earned money.

Thankyou. I'll certainly be sure to look at them very closely.

Just to butt in here guys, but do remember that the SMLE Mark I* * * was never manufactured as such. It is "The Gun That Never Was". Rather, they were ALL conversions from earlier rifles, notably Mark I* and Mark I* * and the conversion supposedly brought them up to Mark III specification.

But that was the theory only.

I first became aware of this critter about 45 years ago when I saw a particularly nice rear sight hiding in a barrel of junk spare parts. So I bought that pretty rear sight, paid my $2 for it and hauled it home along with the action and barrel it was attached to. Bore was absolute toast, I discovered on cleaning the crud out of it... but, a day later, I wiped out the oil.... and there was nice, good, solid lands, nice and square, just the way they are supposed to be, but getting DEEPER for the first 8 inches of rifling, then continuing at constant depth to the muzzle. Time to talk to Major Reynolds but he was in England and I was in BC, so I got his wonderful book and started reading. I found that it was SUPPOSED to look like a Mark III, so I went back to the big barrel at Lever's and bought enough Mark III parts, all the prettiest ones, to build a rifle. It was my first restoration and very likely it was not done right, but it looks good and it shoots okay and it is my 'never-ever-sell' rifle to this day. And those wonderful rear sights with the Indian water-buffalo-horn buttons are just as nice to shoot with as they look. I have a grand total of $12 invested in my Mark I* * * but I will admit that they were rather bigger dollars than these iron things they make today.

But this rifle is a 1907 Enfield and it started out as a Mark I* * and last saw the inside of an arsenal in 1927, despite all the books saying that the last time they were worked on at all was in 1924. Of course, it is a NAVY rifle.... and it still has the old 1907 rear sight with the windage adjustment screw and the Indian water-buffalo-horn slide buttons... and it is still screwed and soldered to the barrel rather than riding on its own band.

And I have another Mark I* * * rifle, this an ARMY conversion of a 1904 London Small Arms Mark I*.... and it was brought fully up to the Mark III* specs before falling into the tender hands of Bubba & Company, the converters into its current sad state. It even has the correct rear-sight assembly on the barrel-mounted band, rather than the sight-ramp being screwed and soldered to the barrel as with the old Navy rifle (which is actually more recent).

I am not the first person by far to have noticed the radical differences in rifles marked Mark I* * *, not by a long shot. It's just that there are so very few of these remaining that most folks don't run into more than a couple in a lifetime.

The Mark I* * * SMLE is one of the least-understood.... and one of the rarest.... of Lee-Enfield rifles. And it is the only model which hasn't been studied seriously. After all, it was "just a conversion".

I am thinking that a FINE project for those of us on this site could be to attempt to assemble all of the data possible from the existing rifles, in an effort to try to figure out exactly what did happen. We know that Army rifles normally would be reworked at Enfield or, during the Great War, at Birmingham Repair (the old Sparkbrook plant) or even possibly by BSA itself, depending on year and work-load. Navy rifles would have been reworked at Plymouth, Portsmouth, Deal or Chatham. One thing clear is that the conversion to Mark I* * * was NOT universal. Had it been, there would be no Mark I* or Mark I* * rifles remaining.... and there are some.

One way to start such a project going would be for everyone who has one of these rifles to post as much data, as many photos, as possible.

This problem has been around now for 100 years. Let's try to figure some of it out NOW. These two rifles offered for sale (TWO!!??!!) would seem to be a Very Good Place to start.

I have found some Mark 1*** rifles with new serial numbers and the prefix CR, ER and G
and I even found two Mark 1** IP rifles converted to Mark 111, interesting that the IP rifles retain their original receiver serial number and the new barrels are numbered to match.

Most difficult (for me) is to find a Mark 1*** still with the original serial number such as my BSA 1906 in the photo. (barrel matches too)

My understanding of a Mk1*** is any member of the Mk1 SMLE family upgaded for use with the MkVII ammo, nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 5thBatt

My understanding of a Mk1*** is any member of the Mk1 SMLE family upgaded for use with the MkVII ammo, nothing more, nothing less.

---

Off the top of my head, the only other mod (other than sights) they got was the fitting of a MkIII butt to allow the storage of the oil bottle and pull through. Not such a mystery- but it is rare to see surviving MkI and MkI* rifles, not so much MkI*** in all original fettle without having been re-numbered. Poor condition ER prefix MkI*** probably being the most common survivors of the family.

I'll look up the list of changes later and get some details...

All VERY interesting and informative! Thanks guy's!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amatikulu

To me, you pay what you have to to fill the hole in the collection. Just be 100% sure that it's original before you lay out a lot of your own hard earned money.

---

That's what's driven my collecting for years. Always nice to find one you want for a cheap price but I've paid high retail for one I had to have even though sometimes I had to figure out a way to pay for it. And after a few years, two things accured. First the price I paid then is the cheap price now. And second I had the gun and enjoyed it all these years, :dancingbanana: Ray

A 1907 ShtLE (Short Lee-Enfield) Mk1*** Rifle (Mfg by RSAF Enfield) in the United Kingdom - Milsurp Knowledge Library, complete with a 132 picture virtual tour.

Regards,
Badger

I have had a couple of these over the years and one of which still retained the original butt. It had been relieved to accept the Mk.III rear sling swivel mount but there was a third hole in the center from the original single lug swivel post.

There are many different variations for this conversion and I don't think there was any "set in stone" pattern for said conversions. Some rifles I have noted in the past have had all original Mk.I parts still fitted and only a lining out of the original serial number for a new ER/CR prefix one.

I have observed Mk.I forestocks having been relieved for Mk.III rear sight protectors, retaining the volley sights. I have also observed the volley sight reliefs patched with wood. A couple of examples have retained the original rear handguard, having the integral rear sight protector removed and the Mk.I forestock relived for the MK.III sight protector. I have observed Mk.III forestocks, with volley sights intact, as replacements using the original barley corn nose piece and I am sure we all have seen the retention of the Mk.I rear sight and also the use of the windage adjustable MK.III replacements.

I'm sure the above mentioned is only a small portion of the variables done but it is only what I can speak of from personal contact with them.

A good thread I think

In this photo - I do not think there are two alike. It is interesting that some have the Mark 111 backsight protector and even Mark 111 wood. Attachment 14669

Not necessarily MkIII wood either... The foreend I used in the restoration of my MkI*** was a MkI foreend that had been cut to accept the addition of a charger bridge. (I think it was the Navy rifles that had charger bridges fitted- sticking my neck out here and not consulting the book...) The best way to pick is by the inner band cutout in the foreend. If it is directly in line with the outer band, it is MkI. If it is almost an inch back, it is MkIII. Then you have the inner band itself. The MkI inner band is slightly smaller in the bore. The MkIII has "III" stamped into the bottom surface where the screw goes in.

I was getting ready to sell my 1905 Sparkbrook Mk 1+++ but after reading these posts I think I will hang on to it.

Bren: PLEASE post photos!

Army or Navy rifle?

This is the one I hoped would exist but never thought I would actually encounter.

Sorry for the late reply smellie but I do not have a digital camera. The rifle came from the Republic of Ireland and has the ER prefix. Condition is good with dings and dents in the wood and the metal around the receiver is turning a grey colour.

Bren

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bren

I was getting ready to sell my 1905 Sparkbrook Mk 1+++ but after reading these posts I think I will hang on to it.

---

I'm curious, how much were you considering asking for your Sparkbrook before you changed your mind about selling it? I've been looking for an early SMLE Mk I*** or however many stars, for some time now but am seeing prices between $800.00 where they actually sell, to $1,100.00 to $1,300.00 dollars where they are priced on Gunbroker but never sell. I've been considering offering my Long Lee Enfiield Mk I* in trade for an early SMLE Mk I, but realize that my model of rifle, being made after May of 1899 (mine is dated 1900 and Marked with Boer War issue date of 1901), and thus without provision for a clearing rod, is the rarer form because of its very limited production before the SMLE came out, therefore more valuable than most other Long Lee's. This would put my rifle's value between $1,500.00 and $1,900.00 I'm told by three differrent collectors of Long Lee's. Even so, I'm wanting an early SMLE bad enough to ignore the difference in collectors value. I've allready got three other long Lee's and want to aquire the other model. So, Just how much are those Early SMLE's worth on the collectors market today? Would I be better off saving up the necessary money for one than trading? Fred

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...08/MLE12-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../08/MLE9-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../08/MLE7-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../08/MLE8-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...08/MLE16-1.jpg

These markings were put on it during WW II
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...08/MLE15-1.jpg

The rifle had been displayed in a military Museum in New Zealand and so had some sort of brass plaque attached with screws over these stamps.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...08/MLE17-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...08/MLE18-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...08/MLE11-1.jpg