Headspace on an M1917

Hi all, sorry if we're going over old ground but, I've just bought an M1917 in 7.62(an old range rifle), the barrel is excellent but when I check the headspace(with the bolt body stripped) the bolt won't close completely but it will close far enough for the rifle to discharge (even on the field gauge). So does this mean the rifle has excessive headspace? The rifle is registered as a .308 winchester and those are the gauges I'm using, but here in Australia 7.62 Nato and .308 Win are generally considered synonymous. Would the possible difference in chambering perhaps be the culprit, or is the headspace just excessive?
Is the only simple rectification a selectively fitted bolt body, or relief of the barrel tennon and shoulder and screwing the barrel in a little more(possible quite easily due to the lack of fixed sights on the barrel).
Thanks and sorry for my ignorance, it's my first 1917.
(I don't know how to move a post either)

The bolt locking surfaces are of the interrupted thread type, but of very fine pitch, so if it won't close all the way you're fine! (Final closing cam leverage using these lugs is about 100:1 (!!!))

tbonesmith

Even the European CIP the sister to the American SAAMI, states the .308 and 7.62 NATO are the same cartridge. In actuality the .308 Winchestre has LOWER chamber pressure than the 7.62 NATO, BUT the real difference is military chambers and headspace are larger.

Below is a photo of an American made headspace gauge set made for the .308/7.62 and the are made in .001 increments and you can see nine gauges.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...augesjpg-1.jpg

Forget your headspace gauges for a moment and do a little test of your M1917, you will need a new empty unfired .308 case, a spent fired primer and a pair of vernier calipers.

What you are going to check with this is how far or how much a primer seated in your rifle by closing the bolt on this test cartridge is sticking out the rear of the cartridge. In simple terms you are checking head gap clearance or how much "air space" is between the rear of the case and the bolt face.

I don't have any .308 photos so I'm using the .303 case as an example here.

1. First measure the length of the unfired 308 case and write this measumrnt down.
2. Now start and partially seat the spent primer in the primer pocket.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP0710-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP0704-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP0706-1.jpg

Now slowly and carefully close the bolt on this test cartridge fully and seat the primer, remove the case and remeasure the case and write this down also.

Now subtract the first case measurement from your second case measurement and this will tell you your head gap clearance.

NOTE: The American M14 7.62 NATO rifle can have .009 head gap clearance and still pass the field gauge test.

Below is a example of a .303 Winchester case fired in my Enfield rifle with the headspace set at .067, my head gap clearance was .009 (nine thousandths) and the case stretched .009 when fired.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MGP45211-1.jpg

The average commercial case is made .002 shorter than minimum headspace for a given rifle caliber to ensure the cartridge will fit in the chamber. If you subtract .002 from your case measurements and and this to the minimum headspace requirement you will have your actual headspace reading.

I "cheated" and didn't buy headspace gauges for my 7.62 Ishapore 2A1, I purchased a RCBS Precision Mic and did the above testing with the unfired case as a "gauge".

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MGP51301-1.jpg

Below, minimum headspace for the .308.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MGP51571-1.jpg

Below the actual case measures .002 shorter or .002 less than minimum headspace for the .308 Winchester.

Now also remember this, each country sets its own headspace limits for the 7.62 Nato and as an example the British L42 Enfield has tighter headspace settings than American commercial SAAMI standards. (.002 tighter than even the British L1A1)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP5254-1.jpg

If your test cartridge primer extends .002 to approximately .006 you are in commercial headspace range, if it is .011 or less you are in military headspace range. On my Ishapore 2A1 I have .007 thousandths head gap clearance which puts it in the safe headspace range for the M14 rifle.

Remember it is the head gap clearance or the "air space" behind the case that causes case stretching and case head separations, and military case are made thicker in the base web area to prevent excessive case stretching in military firearms.

Below an example of excess head gap clearance for the .303 British (over .020)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...10/09/92-1.jpg

tbonesmith .......

Ed did a great job of showing several important things that can help you out. The backed out primer shows a fired case with excessive headspace. The case gripped the chamber wall, and it allowed the primer to back out. Great photography . . . . worth lots of words.

He also showed the RCBS Precision Mic. I prefer to use the Digital Headspace Gauge because it works on ALL calibers, and it does the job of other reloading tools.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8/COAD06-1.jpg

Whether you're loading a .303 Brit. (or a .308 Win.) you should also measure chamber clearance "at the shoulder". Ed's cut-in-half case shows the result when a fired case stretches too far to fill the chamber. This case stretching thins (and weakens) the brass above the web, and it causes headspace separations.

I use the Digital Headspace Gauge to compare my handloads (at the shoulder) to my fired cases. That's the best way for handloads to fit reliably and get the longest case life.

If you're not installing barrels (and if you reload), you really have no need for conventional headspace gauges.

i dissagree, anyone that collects, and shoots vintage rifles, most that are well over 65 years old...should have a No Go and Field reject, and should check them now and then.
SMLE, Savage 99. Winchester 94,s 1917,s and P14,s are known for headspace issues.
iv repaired many of these rifles, that if the shooters had and knew how to check headspace, and look for signs of bad headspace on a fired case, they would have not failed.
any time i buy a used Milsurp...the first thing that is done, is a cleaning rod run down the tube....second...headspace is checked... set of gages cost is less then 50.00...and a cheap way of keeping your rifles safe...
i just worked on a new model Savage 99, in .308 Win, that had less then 500 round shot through it...wouldnt eject a handloaded case.
never thought that rifle being as new would have headspace issues.. so i worked the extractor... well, the extractor worked so well, it pulled the rim off.
i checked headspace....it failed no go and field reject.. a new barrel is on the way. no...i wont turn back the shoulder on a lever action rifle to repair headspace.

chuckindenver

This being a military weapons website and collectors having so many different rifles from all over the world the cost of all these gauges could bankrupt a collector.

What is important for the people reading this is to understand headspace is governed by the cases you shoot and not the rifle. This simply means civilian commercial cases are not made to military standards and are thinner and lighter than military designed cases. Again this simply means firing commercial cases in some military rifles could lead you to believe you have a headspace problem when you actually do not.

Headspace dimensions are one thing BUT what is actually is more important is "head gap clearance" or the air space between the rear of the case and the bolt face. This "air space" is the amount the case can stretch when fired in the base web area of the case and cause case head separations.

As an example of what I'm talking about is the British L42 7.62 NATO Enfield rifle that has headspace settings .002 tighter or closer than American SAAMI commercial headspace standards and American military standards. This also means British 7.62 ammunition could have slightly different case dimentions than American military standards and cases.

An American commercial 308 case is shorter than a American Military 7.62 NATO case by as much as 1 1/2 to 2 thousandths. This can make or put actual headspace standards between military and commercial rifles into a "gray" area instead of being as simple as black and white.

My bottom line is I want to know "how much" air space is between the case and bolt face and not get into vague gray area headspace settings and have every headspace gauge in the world.

Bottom line, the amount your primer is protruding from the rear of your case is more important and tells you far more than a headspace gauge. All this for the price of having a vernier calliper and a used spent primer.

Headspace is governed by the cases you shoot and not the rifle, and there is a difference between commercial and military cases. Below commercial and military .303 cases have different rim thicknesses, base diameters and case wall thickness and this applies to the majority of commercial and military cases. (this is one reason why commercial and military headspace standards are different)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...thicker3-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...thicker2-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...thicker1-1.jpg

i agree, a fired case is your best way of checking headspace... but to tell these guys, to not use a headspace gage or have them checked by a gunsmith,,is almost criminal.
NEVER EVER SHOOT A SURPLUS RIFLE WITHOUT HAVING IT CHECKED BY A GUNSMITH ever...some of these rifle saw hard use., and likely got no service before being sold as surplus.
some exeperianced shooters may have gages, and may be able to do the safety check themselvs.. for less then what the tooling cost that you have pictured a set of headspace gages can be purchased.. like for half the amount.
many of the posters here are first time buyers of military rifles, and take what is said here as the bible....when starting out collecting and shooting these rifles, picking up a set of gages for each cal,. you shoot is a great idea, some gages can be used for other cal, as well, .308. 243. .260 use the same gage. 25.06 30-06, and others use the same gage..
even if you just use a No Go..its better then nothing..
imagine what would happen if someone new to collecting, got a french Mas, with some ammo, took it to the range, and just fired it without checking the headspace first,,,and it had a case head failure, then loosing an eye, cuts and bruses,,and a damaged rifle...
when if he had just spent 50.00 and got a no go gage, he would have already known it may fail.....
i do agree with what your saying,,,but safety first...always check the headspace on these old rifles before you fire them..
you have about 500.00 or more worth of measuring tools pictured,...how many shooters do you think have those,?? 10% maybe..?
500.00 can buy alot of headspace gages....

chuckindenver

Why would I want to take my Ishapore 2A/2A1 7.62 Enfield to a gunsmith to have the headspace checked when even a American gunsmith wouldn't know the correct headspace settings for this Indian made rifle.

So anyone please show me the Indian manual for the Ishapore 2A/2A1 7.62 Enfield rifle and the correct headspace settings.

Don't bother looking, you won't find the Indian manual and a American gunsmith would just use the gauges for the M14 rifle and be wrong.

BUT with a spent primer and a unfired case you could find out your head gap clearance and not waste your money taking your Ishapore 2A/2A1 to a gunsmith who doesn't have any idea what the headspace settings are.

my posts wernt a flame, no need to take it personal, im only trying to steer you in a direction..when giving advise on these and other forums..you always must assume the worse.
i agree with just about everything you said, cept for not checking headspace.
some of the readers here are experianced shooters, and have a good grasp on how this all works, but some have no idea, and tend to take this to heart...
i try and give the most simple, safest help i can give..

Chuck, Ed, I respect you both for your knowledge, and don't like to see you unnecessarily working each other up into a lather. I therefore propose the following compromise - which I thinks covers both your positions:

If you know that your rifle WAS actually manufactured to CIP or SAAMI standards, then it is a very good idea to check the headspace with the appropriate set of gauges.
If it was NOT, I suggest you follow Ed's method, as it allows you to sort out the "possibles" from the "hopeless" quickly and cheaply.

To avoid even touching the fringes of the Enfield headspace minefield, I suggest you take a look at the Carl Gustav, a.k.a. Swedish Mauser. We are fortunate in having a real expert on these forums, known as "Dutchman", who has covered the headspace topic re. Carl Gustav in convincing detail. Look it his website.
If you take a perfect Carl Gustav to a gunsmith and he pops in SAAMI gauges, he will tell you that the rifle fails the test.
The rifle is fine, but the gauges are wrong for a rifle that was NOT made to SAAMI standards.

Patrick

Patrick

I'm not lathered 'yet' Patrick, I will be by the time I get done cutting the grass today though. :D

I also respect chuckindenver's posting, the difference being because I worked in maintenance and repair fields all my life I think we could and should teach the people in these forums on what to check for and how to fix it.

There are two types of people in these forums, mechanically inclined and people who take their firearms to gunsmiths. And these people can make up their own minds on what they are going to do.

One of the reasons I supplied so many Enfield manuals to these forums was for the members to read the inspection requirements and specification and be able to inspect and repair the Enfields.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ugefile1-1.jpg

None of my milsurps have ever been to a gunsmith and I would be willing to bet over 75% of all milsurp owners never take their rifles to a gunsmith. We can teach the other 25% what to look for and how to fix their problems.

Lets not forget what the Textbook of Small Arms stated about the strength of military rifles.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4/TBOSA1-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4/TBOSA2-1.jpg

The British military to this day still proof checks their small arms using oiled proof pressure test cartridges to put maximum pressure and strain on the action and bolt.

If your milsurp was going to blow up, it would have done so long before you got it in your hands on it. You still need to visually inspect your rifles BUT short of re-proof testing, magnafluxing and possibly other tests your eyes and brain will tell you a great deal about your rifle.

All the information in the world is written in books and all you have to do is read.

Headspace/head gap clearance on the Enfield rifle can be checked with a empty unfired case and a tool as simple as a feeler gauge. ;)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MGP6598b-1.jpg

On the 7.62 NATO you could have with military cases as much as .012 head gap clearance checking with a field gauge. (Less is better)

With commercial .308 cases you would want less than .010 for field max and between .006 and .002 would be much better.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6600-1.jpg

if your mislurps was going to blow up, it already would have??
i would say....i disagree.Attachment 15191Attachment 15190
just a couple, that have failed and were shown here by fellow posters. 1911 was likely an over loaded round, the A3, was accesive headspace, yes, thats his blood on the rifle..
i dont need to dig up books to know how to be safe. i just promote it, at every chance i get.
i have plenty of other case head failure pictures of rifles shot with headspace issues, that if were checked with a simple no go gage first would have not been shot until a barrel was changed or repaired.

One half inch of excess headspace and the M1 didn't come unglued.

There is a difference between excess headspace and excess chamber pressure from over charged handloads. ;)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mage006e-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...toin3006-1.jpg

Guys, please do not flame me. I do not think that I am an idiot, and I am not asking this question as a joke. I would be delighted to read a serious answer founded on facts, not hearsay.

Will someone please explain how excessive headspace (whatever that is) can cause a rifle to blow up?
Case head separation, yes. With resulting gas blowback, yes. Blow up rifle--How?

Patrick

in the last few years, iv had 3 1917,s that have had case head failures, 2 1903,s , 1 1903A3, 1 Glock 17, 1 Remington 788 in cal, .308, one Winchester M12 shotgun {replacement barrel}
and my presonal Remington 700 in cal, 6.5-06
all 3 17,s destroyed the stocks and floorplates, all 3 had over sized chambers and headspace issues, and gualled bolt locking weys. receivers did not fail, all blew the extractors off, and injured the 3 shooters, and one bystander with shrapnel, the gas has to go someplace, and down and out it did.
the 1903,s just locked shut, and cracked both stocks, receivers didnt fail, both had headpace issues, and new barrels fixed the issue...no injury, other then a numb hand and a peppered face, the A3, is the one thats shown, and a Nat Ord, made receiver, it failed, destroyed the stock, injured the shooter, of 2000 cast made rifles by Nat Ord, Santa Fe arms, iv seen more then 5 here in Denver fail alone, and every one iv ever checked would close easy on a feild reject and no go.
the Glock 17, is a duty pistol of a friend who works for Denver PD, and had a lot of rounds fired, and was starting to split cases, he still kept firing the pistol, after i told him to retire it, and send it back to Glock, it blew the top of the slide off, Pistol is on display at Gunsmoke, no injury cept of a bruised ego,
Remington 788. . 308 Winchester, came to me first as a clean and safety check, it failed headspace, and had seen a lot of hard use, i advised the customer replace the barrel, or only shoot factory ammo if he was going to keep shooting, 2 weeks later the rifle failed, destroying the stock, blowing the magbox out of the rifle, shooter was injured bad cust to his left hand, and face, bolt was locked in place, after the bolt was forced open, bolt face was fractured, receiver didnt fail, new barrel, bolt, stock and other bits, the rifle is back in service.
Winchester M12, US riot gun, customer asked me how much to swap out the barrel for a trench gun barrel he picked up on GB, he didnt like my rates, and did it him self, on the first shot, it blew the shell lifter down, fractured the forend, broke the barrel extention, injury to his foot, and left hand.
Remington 700 6.5-06. custom i built, from a .260 Remington barrel, i knew eventually it would have to be turned back, last year, it started to split case necks, i stopped and check, failed headspace, i turned the shoulder back, reset the chamber face, and reamed the chamber,. and its back in service, passes headspace, and shoots like a dream.
those are just the failures in the past few years, that i have personally delt with, and are extreem in nature...
but like iv been trying to say... better safe then sorry.
the 1903A3 was shot by a fellow Milsurps member, and while i was away, he was told that the rifle was safe to shoot, and to just go ahead and shoot it....
had i saw that rifle, i would have told him what a POS they are, and not to shoot it...
what iv been trying to point out...is that i agree that, a fired case is your best test for headpace and chamber issues, the only thing i dont agree with is that telling people not to have a headspace gage...though they arent a failsafe test,,they are a cheap way of safely checking a rifle, not all guns can be gauged in the same way, and research should be done, before you buy a vintage rifle, such as the one pictured,
any firearm can fail, even if you follow all the safe shooting, tests, cleaning ect.. things happen., iv seen them at the worst..
so i push safety first and foremost.
like i said earlier.. the guns we all buy , collect and shoot on this forum can be over 100 years old, and you have no idea what they went through,
some could have not ever seen any service, but others could have seen hard use and abuse, they were cleaned up, and sold as scrap or surplus.
we buy them with the intentions of shooting, collecting and enjoying them... this should be done safely with a little common since.

Patrick Chadwick

Commercial non military cartridge cases were not designed to shoot in military chambers. Commercial cartridge cases are thinner in the base web area and military cases are much thicker.

Military chambers are longer and fatter than civilian commercial chambers and firing commercial cases or ammunition in military rifles can cause excessive case stretching and distorted cases. (banana shaped cases) It can also cause much shorter case life when reloading and case head separations.

You do not need headspace gauges to check your headspace and a headspace gauge will not keep someone from sloppy reloading practices or overloading their cartridge cases and blowing up a rifle.

97% of all errors are human errors and only 3% are actual mechanical failures.

The 03-A3 30-06 Springfield pictured above were assembled from surplus military parts and Santa Fe Arms made new receivers. The Santa Fe receivers were not made to military specifications and many failures have occurred. (NOTE: Defective improperly made receivers caused the failure above)

The 03 Springfields below are made from receivers that were cut in half and sold as scrap by the military. These receivers were welded back together and are now being sold as "like new" rifles. Having a headspace gauge won't fix the problems these rifles are going to have unless you check your headspace every time you go to the range to shoot.

US M1903A4 Springfield 30.06 Rifle


The book below tells you to set your Enfield headspace .003 thousandths over your rim thickness. This also means .003 head gap clearance or "air space" between the case and bolt face for any caliber rifle is good to have.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/covera-1.jpg

I have Enfield rifles that I have set the headspace as close as .061 and as long as .084 and I have NEVER had a case head separation in my life.

How far a spent primer sticks out from the rear of your cases will tell you far more than a headspace gauge will.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...09/08/91-1.jpg

The 03 Springfields below are made from receivers that were cut in half and sold as scrap by the military. These receivers were welded back together and are now being sold as "like new" rifles. Having a headspace gauge won't fix the problems these rifles are going to have unless you check your headspace every time you go to the range to shoot.

not hardly, the A3,s pictured in your link are recovered drill rifles, that is... bore plugged, with a carbon steel rod. barrel welded to the receiver, firing pin ground off the end, firing pin hold welded shut, cut off welded so that the bolt cant be removed,
the rifles pictured, barrels replaced, welds removed, bolt replaced... refinished, if done right headspace is just fine.
i have never ever seen a 1903 springfield variant that was a welded together from 2 other rifles... Garands yes, 1911 pistols yes.. 03,s ? no.

Thank you Edward and Chuck for your contributions.
I observe that there is however no explanation as to how excessive headspace per se can cause a rifle to blow up. Chuck writes of rifles "with headspace issues", but form the further information (welded receiver sections) it sounds as if those rifles had a lot of other defects. Edward is familiar with the claim that the Enfield has a "weak" action, but a friend has a No 4 that can seperate cases by the sackload, and I don't think it's going to explode. What hapens when the case seperates is that there is a puff of hot gas out of the side vent hole that is especially provided for that purpose. I do not see how this could produce excessive pressure in the chamber. Vent holes or channels have been common practice since the 1870s/80s, when brass drawing had not yet been mastered to the level of today's technology, so I am not convinced that an '03A3 receiver can blow because of a case seperation.

So I put it to you again guys: has anyone clear evidence that excess headspace BY ITSELF can cause a receiver blowup?

Patrick

if you look at the picture, and read the stats of the failures, you notice that none of the receivers failed, however. when the case head failed, the gase holes provided werent enough,
look at the stock on the A3 pictured. it was fractured around the receiver area.
the injuries were from wood, and parts of the trigger guard,
the other rifles that failed, had damage in the same way.
in all of the case head failures that i delt with, the rifles were repaired, and back in service.
addmited, i know very little about the SMLE, and likely wont ever work on one, or keep one in my collection, and wont ever work on one.
for the most part i agree with the fired case approch of headspace, i dont agree with not checking headspace with a gage..
the OP was in referance to headspacing a 1917 Enfield, and not a SMLE.. and said rifle in the OP actually headspaced just fine, after he checked it correctly, and is likely safe to shoot.
what got my attention, is a lack of safety. and i stick by what i said, safety first, always, check your weapons, keep them clean, and always look at the fired cases, for signs of headspace failure.
if you buy a new to you Milsurps rifle or pistol, always check its safe function, headspace , if not by yourself, by someone with the experiance to do so, before firing the weapon.
another one of those ...lets argue for the sake of agruing is starting to well up..

Patrick

There are many myths and misconceptions floating around the Internet, in another posting we were told by an "expert" that excess headspace and the flexing of the "weak" Enfield action caused this below. The amusing part is this Enfield rifle suffered the same "damage" as the 03 Springfield with "excess headspace".

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...eadspace-1.jpg

How do you spell "hang fire" and a "partially opened bolt" in the British English language. ;)

Dear Edward,
I was delighted to see your photos of the 308 cartridge fired in a 30-06 chamber. But your comment "One half inch of excess headspace ..." seems to be a trifle misleading.

From your contributions, I deduce that you have the CIP or SAAMI data to check this out: The shoulder diameter of the 308 case is actually slightly larger than the diameter of the 30-06 case at the same distance from the base. So if you feed a 308 case into a 30-06 chamber it will jam. I have mentioned this before, in describing how a clueless person next to me at the range was cursing because it was so difficult to close the bolt. There will,in this situation, be actually zero head clearance on the 308 case.

A genuine 1/2" of clearance would make it impossible to fire a cartridge - the firing pin would not be long enough!
The jamming/camming effect will obviously be highly sensitive to chamber size and degree of resizing applied to the case. I suggest you try it out.

Patrick

Patrick?
your are correct, the .308 is a little fatter then the 30-06, and is a little tough to feed into a bolt action 30-06, and for years thought it might be tough...untill it happened to me.
last summer, at the range, my son mixed up the .308 with the 30-06.. i reached in the 06 can, grabbed a round, tossed it in my A3, and touched the switch, heck, it even hit the steel target i was aiming at, ejected the case, and to my suprise it looked exactly like the one pictured,
i felt nothing different when i went to close the bolt,
however, in the past, iv tried with the fring pin assembly removed, on other 03,s and the bolt would not close on a .308 round.
could have been just me, closing the bolt in a hurry, a slightly oversized chamber , who knows for sure, i still have the case someplace, as a dummy reminder, to never get in a hurry, and look at what you feeding your rifle.

Haven't done this trick , yet, myself, but I have picked up a few at various ranges. It's rather shocking the first time you see one.

first, and only time for me ,,i hope. it was like a WTF...momment.

How about this one?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../caution-1.jpg

This shows a 300 Win. Mag. round fired in a 300 Weatherby rifle. Notice the unusual fired case. This could easily have been a real disaster.

[Weatherby round on the left, the 2 on the right are both Win. Mags.]

Yup, complete w/ longitudinal splits in the case neck. It's in my odd dead brass collection somewhere, along w/ something like a .30 Carbine round fired in something WAY too big in diameter. There was enough pressure to swell the entire case forward of the web to a surprising degree.


The belted mag example isn't really a "bad or excess" headspace problem since technically the Win Mag did have proper headspace in the Weatherby mag chamber as it nominally headspaces on the belt. This time it's like what they did to the .303 Ross rifles in WWI- enlarged chamber.

Earlier this summer I mixed up some ammo when I took one of my 1917 enfields and an 1891 argentine out. I had a stripper clip with tree rounds on it and loaded them into the '17 and fired away. As I ejected the third round I saw that the cartrige was missing its neck (i thought). Then I noticed that the first two looked the same. I got off easy but it rattled me. I couldn't shoot a rifle for the rest of the day and hit any thing. The '17 is fine.
Maybe I should start a thread titled "Stupid things I did and survived."
john

actually, last year i had a guy bring me a Weatherby with a case stuck in the chamber...guess what...it was a .300 mag, stuck in the .300 Weatherby.
after i got the case out, and asked the guy to bring all his ammo in,,it was all ..300 Mag..when i asked why he was doing this...
said the salesman told him he could shoot .300Mag in that rifle....and it was 20.00 a box cheaper...i just stood dumbfounded.
and said..whay dont you sell this rifle, and get the cal, you want?? his wife had got him the Weatherby for a gift, and he didnt want to hurt her feelings..
sooo, the rifle was free right???yes....then buy the right ammo for the rifle..and dont blow the gift up, and kill yourself being cheap...he agreed, and got the right ammo..
another note...he had been shooting .300mag, in that rifle for 10 years, and had 4 empty boxes, with stretched out cases in them...
had one not finally stuck so bad he coudnt get it out,,he still wuld have shot that rifle, with the wrong ammo..another note...screwdriver marks were all over the breach of that rifle..
some so bad, i had to clean and lap them so the bolt would work smooth again..
i had to put the barreled action in a freezer over night to get the case out..even a case extractor wouldnt get it loose.

Good and thorough posts already. Note that the M1917 bolt moves forward several thousandths of an inch when rotating it closed, due to the slanted locking recesses and bolt lugs. Headspace is measured when the bolt is all the way down, or at least far enough to apply the safety. US SAAMI 308 standards are 1.630 GO and 1.634 NOGO. NATO 7.62 is 1.6355 GO and !.6415 NOGO. Note that the NATO GO exceeds the SAAMI NOGO; and the NATO tolerance range is amazingly sloppy. Other standards exist, mainly due to the limitations of the intended rifle - e.g. reliable functioning in the L1A1; action (body in UK terminology) stretch in the No.4 variants. I don't know what the excuse is for the Italian BM59's - most I have seen exceed the NATO NOGO.

Note the RCBS case mike in the other posts - inexplicably, it shows most of the NATO ammunition inside SAAMI specs - a really sloppy fit situation.

I have a sporterized 1917 Enfield. When I close on the FORESTER NO_GO the bolt easily closes. I added a shim to the No-go gauge that was .011 and it is where I would like the bolt to ideally sit. (with the square corner in the middle of the bolt handle 45`)

With the FORESTER Field gauge, the bolt almost closes.. It is just about 1mm short of closed with a little finger pressure. It might close if I press harder. (Corner is at about 75`) Would this be safe to shoot?

NOTE: This is an Eddystone rifle and I don't want to mess with cutting the barrel. It looks great as is but just don't want myself of someone else to get a face full of gas. or brass.

seems like your Ok, id test fire with factory ammo, and take a look at the brass, then go from that point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by COLTMAN1

This is an Eddystone rifle and I don't want to mess with cutting the barrel. It looks great as is but just don't want myself of someone else to get a face full of gas. or brass.

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Please take look at the M1917 forum, about 4th thread down, on M1917 headspace. The camming action of an M1917 is so powerful that they make great gauge crushers. :thdown:

Chuck has described how to use gauges properly in an M1917 - you need to go very carefully, otherwise you are just squeezing the gauges!

:wave:
Patrick

If it won't close easily (and all the way) on the field gage then it passes inspection. Might be a little hard on brass, but if you aren't relaoding who cares? If you are, then just neck size and segergate the brass so that it stays with this rifle. No worries!