No4Mk1(T) for sale over on CGN

Good day all. Up for sale (not by me) over on Canadian Gunnutz is a No4Mk1(T).
CanadianGunNutz.com
I’ve been looking over the photos the seller has provided and they just didn’t look right. I’m sure it is a legitimate No4T but I suspect the forearm is a replacement. Also looking at the S51 on the butt stock I’ve never seen a such a large space between all three letters/digits. I’ve seen a space between the S and 51 but never between all three. Now I hasten to add that I’ve only handled 7 or so No4(T)’s (4 of which I owned) so I’m just wondering how common this is? Any thoughts? It’s also missing it’s front sight protector and magazine. The asking price is…..$6000.00 :eek: !! The sellers text reads as:

NO.4 MK1 (T) Sniper Rifle

I am offering for sale a World War II production British No.4 MK1(T) Sniper Rifle manufactured by BSA in 1945. The No.4 MK1(T) Sniper Rifles were standard production BSA No.4 Rifles that were selected for accuracy and sent to Holland & Holland for conversion to sniper configuration. The rifles were fitted with a No. 32 Telescopic Sight on a detachable mount attached to pads on the left side of the receiver by two set screws. The mount was designed to permit the telescopic sight to be removed from the rifle and re-attached with minimum adjustment to the rifle zero. Each sight was calibrated to the individual rifle by Holland & Holland and the mount and sight were serial numbered to the rifle. The rifle stocks were fitted with a special wooden cheek piece to provide the proper eye relief for the telescopic sight. The 3X telescopic sight has a 'pointer and crosswire' reticule and click-adjustable windage and elevation drums. The rear sight was modified by removal of the battle sight aperture. Each rifle was furnished with a wooden transit case, a scope can, leather lens covers and a U.S. M1907 leather sling. The rifle has a black phosphate finish. The stock, forearm and handguard are oil-finished walnut. The left side of the butt-socket is stamped with the BSA code (M47), the date of manufacture (1945), the serial number (X32357) and the "telescope rifle" designation (TR). The left side of the receiver is stamped with the model designation "No.4 MK1" and a large "T" indicating selection for sniper modification. The serial number is stamped on the proper locations on the back of the bolt handle, the underside of the forearm and on the left side of the telescopic sight mount. The underside of the butt is stamped with the Holland & Holland conversion code "S51". The telescopic sight serial number "24515" is stamped on the top of the stock wrist. The telescopic sight tube is roll-stamped: "TEL. SIGHTING/No 32 MK3/ No 24515/OS 2039A/^ (Broad Arrow). The base and rings are stamped with the sequential assembly numbers "179" and "180". The scope also has the painted red "W" (waterproof) and a blue "B" (bloomed to enhance light transmission) . All of the serial numbers on the rifle and telescopic sight match and the sight is original to this rifle. The scope is complete with the original russet leather lens covers with "Broad Arrow" property mark. The scope case is the scarce No. 8 canvas case and is stenciled with the correct numbers for the rifle and scope. The rifle is complete with a wooden transit case painted olive green. The original paper equipment list/instruction sheet is present on the underside of the lid. The left side of the case is stenciled: "CHEST S.A. NO 15 MK I". The original carbord inspection tag is still attached the end of the case with the rifles serial number marked on it.

The No.4 MK1(T) Sniper Rifle is generally considered to be the most accurate and rugged sniper rifle issued during WWII; these rifles remained in British service until the 1970s.

Condition: Excellent, appears to have been not issued. The rifle and telescopic sight retain 97% plus of the original black phosphate finish. The telescopic sight optics are very good and both the windage and elevation knobs have not been turned as I have been told not to tuirn these until they have been dabed with some release oil. The bore is bright. All of the markings on the rifle and scope are sharp. The stock and forearm are in very fine-excellent with only light handling and storage wear. The lens covers are in near-new condition. The scope case is in near mint contidion with sharp stenciled markings. The transit case is in good overall condition and has all of the correct markings and components. This is an excellent example of a very desirable, completely matching British No.4 MK1(T) Sniper Rifle with transit case, scope can and lens covers.
There is no sling with is gun but must have come with the 1907 leather sling as I found one of the leather keepers in the bottom of the case.

This is likely the best No. 4 MK 1 (T) sniper rifle offered to the public in a long time in Canada as most of these are traded within the Sniper Collectors. I am offering all CGN members a chance at owning this piece of history.

Price is $6000.00 plus shipping and insurance. Shipping for this kit will not be cheap because of the size and weight. Delivery can be arranged by contacting me as I live in Southern Ontario and travel to East Coast on ocasion.
I have included a number of photos but if more are require for interested buyers please contact me with your e-mail address.

Wood stampings look legit, price is a bit steep.

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Originally Posted by Lance

Wood stampings look legit, price is a bit steep.

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Well if anyone would know it's you Lance. How common is it to see the serial numbers on the forearm with the circle from the end of the punch around them? They also look to be upside down to what I usually see as well. Any comment on how common it is to see the widely spaced S51 marking?*As for price it's atleast $1000.00 to $1500.00 above the going rate here in Canada at the moment.

The rifle and scope "look" to be in very good condition - I just wonder how the foresight protector and amagazine got mislaid.

Before I'd spend $6,000, I'd like to see a few more pics of this area where the serial number of the scope is stamped. Obviously the scope matches it's canvas scope bag and that in-turn matches the rifle serial number, which is a good thing, but the wood stamping in the pic below seems to show a very FLAT area.

It might just be the camera lighting, but at that price, I'd want to make sure it wasn't sanded and stamped over a previous number.

Just my opinion and remember, I'm a K98k collector ... :lol:

It does look clean other than that, but as mentioned before, there's a bunch of experts on here who would know far better than me. :thup:

Regards,
Badger

Badger,

It sure does look sanded to me as well.

I'm not the expert that some others here are, but here's what mine looks like in the same area:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...520Small-1.jpg

The wrist area also looks like it's been sanded?

Here's mine:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...520Small-1.jpg

Here's his:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC02807-1.jpg

Some stuff there just doesn't look quite....right.

Interestingly, my rifle is S/N X33021, his is X33257, so the S/N range matches, but his scope number is 24515, mine is 23631.

He has an earlier production rifle, with a later production scope?

I'm wondering if we have a #4(T) action that's dressed in someone else's wood.

NS

Could this "evidence of sanding" actually be evidence of wear ? Looks to me like this is the area where a shooter would usually hold the rifle.

I agree it looks good but the price is way to high and one would have to really want that particular rifle to pay $6,000.00. I saw one sell recently in as good shape for less than $4,000.00 but it didn't have the canvas scope case which stilll won't justify the price.

There was an all matching one on auction recently that looked to be in as nice a condition with a matching scope MkI metal can but no Transit chest and it went for $4300. I think if you add a matching transit chest and a scarcer canvas canvas MkII scope case like the one currently has for sale it might bring the value closer to $5,000 or maybe a bit more being it's a complete all matching kit with an excellent condt rifle you think?.
I just paid $3850 for an all matching one which included a matching MkI scope case and matching transit case and an extra canvas scope case but the difference is my rifle is not in the minty condition like these rifles are.
The condition of those rifles would bring a premium price.

What are transit chests and the canvas cases on the loose selling for now days? Ray.

Here's one that auction just ended, all matching. Rifle and scope only, for $3500.
The wrist looks similar to the one on the CGN sales.

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...2102&oh=216543

There is just something about the wrist numbers. But I have seen the wrist flat filed and struck on a few rifles so it might be OK. I'm just used to more uniform striking on a more rounded surface. Front sight cover can be missing for any number of reasons.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...b0d659e5-1.jpg

I had thoughts about the rounded ends to the fore-end numbers. I seem to associate those stamps with the machine made stamps from the 70's. As a matter of interest, I have the original '51' of the S 51 'liberated' from the examiners bench at the H&H factory.

The sanding marks look original to me, just like it came from the factories before it was smoothed by touch. Some of the factory butts also have the distinct flat on top of the wrist too. It's quite common. The finish also looks like the H&H brunofixing too. They used this particular finish because it was a chemical finish that would affect the area that they'd worked on. That's the reason apparently, it's a bit patchy

Does anyone have any thoughts on the bolt handle serial number? I've seen messy stampings before, and have owned a few of the British (T)'s over the years. They aren't all perfect, but the bolt handle looks messy--restamped? Or just a bad day at BSA Shirley?

Ed

& say I think it's a good one. The appearance of the wood is quite typical of late issue WW2 walnut as is the manufacturer of it. I would concur with Peter's comments but would also state that I'm sure the forend stamps (even with the circle around them) are consistent with being original. When I bought the batch of T's in the 90's I also bought several sacks full of 'take off' wood. This varied from mint to well used & there were a number of forends identical to that shown (save for the serial number itself, of course). Re the S51 ----- yes it is a little atypical in its spacing, but they were all hand stamped don't forget, & the S & the 51 are all of the correct style.

The only thing that I don't like about it is the price.......

ATB

Roger, just curious, what prices were you getting for the ones you bought and sold in the 90's? Were any of them complete and matching w/chests?
I know most collectors don't collect for the investiment but it's always nice to know how much your items are worth compared to what they cost in the past which kind of gives you an idea of what it's value may be in the future.
Just in comparision, cmp was selling complete un-opened mint direct from the arsenal M1D's sniper rifles with all still packaged accessories in the late 90's for I think around a $1,000. Last one I saw a few weeks ago sold for $4,700.
I picked one up for $2600 which everyone tells me was a deal, a few weeks ago but the packages had been opened and the scope and cheek pad put on the rifle. Ray

Thru LERA I found a link to No4 T's from Kleins in New York (?) from 1960 and complete with transit case were $59.95. The text said they were too late for hunting season so clearing them out. A couple of months later they were selling them for $64.95...talk about inflation.. :banghead:

No4T's that had all been gutted. Many had been stripped down to just barrelled actions; some were more or less complete (rifles only, no scopes or chests etc); although most were somewhere between the two. Some had both body pads on, some one & some both missing, but all were genuine & restorable with enough TLC & some spares. We gradually rebuilt them all over a period of years, selling off most (probably more than half to other UK dealers), but could afford to keep nice or rare examples for ourselves as they.....well....didn't owe us a lot.

IIRC we paid 10 pounds plus VAT for each rifle/barrelled action regardless of how complete it was......

We didn't complain.....In fact we didn't even haggle over the price. We just loaded them into my car pbq!

ATB

DRP's answer to the last question begs the question.............. where the heck do you find 140 telescopes?

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

DRP's answer to the last question begs the question.............. where the heck do you find 140 telescopes?

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Fortunately that became he purchaser's problem! (May also have made a small contribution to why No32's fetch so much these days on the auction sites.....)

ATB

Thanks for passing on your observations and experience guys. This is all great information to put into the knowledge bank for future reference! Now I’ll have to figure out how to do the photo down load and little thumbnail thing so we can preserve this for the future.

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

& say I think it's a good one. The appearance of the wood is quite typical of late issue WW2 walnut as is the manufacturer of it. I would concur with Peter's comments but would also state that I'm sure the forend stamps (even with the circle around them) are consistent with being original. When I bought the batch of T's in the 90's I also bought several sacks full of 'take off' wood. This varied from mint to well used & there were a number of forends identical to that shown (save for the serial number itself, of course). Re the S51 ----- yes it is a little atypical in its spacing, but they were all hand stamped don't forget, & the S & the 51 are all of the correct style.

The only thing that I don't like about it is the price.......

ATB

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Wow speaking of high prices for (T)s check out the recent auction results from Rock Island Auctions for items 1652, $11500.00US and 3327, w/o case $6900US.
Been cruising this site for a while and thought I would join. It's a great site with good information.
Foxbrook

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Originally Posted by Foxbrook

Wow speaking of high prices for (T)s check out the recent auction results from Rock Island Auctions for items 1652, $11500.00US and 3327, w/o case $6700US.
Been cruising this site for a while and thought I would join. It's a great site with good information.
Foxbrook

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Welcome .... :thup:

Actually, Lot 3327 says $6,900 U.S. in the final prices realized sheets they sent me.

Reference Thread - Rock Island Auctions (Sept. 10, 11 & 12, 2010)

Regards,
Badger

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Originally Posted by Badger

Welcome .... :thup:

Actually, Lot 3327 says $6,900 U.S. in the final prices realized sheets they sent me.

Reference Thread - Rock Island Auctions (Sept. 10, 11 & 12, 2010)

Regards,
Badger

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Yes that is what I had too, I have made the change in my post.
Foxbrook

S 51 spacing incorrect, buttstock "Flat" definitely not factory, circle punch marks odd. Lack of front site ears already mentioned. I'd pass.

The photos that see show the front sight protector and magazine. Must have been taken off to show the markings on the barrel.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC02921-1.jpg

I also see that it has sold.
Foxbrook

No4MkIT, Lance and the rest of you gents,

Suppose it doesn't matter now, as it has sold, but thought I would render my two cents worth.

First off, I have to agree with Lance that the markings do look legit. Not that I claim to have the expertise of some of you folks, but, I simply base my opinion, (and that's all it is), on observation of other specimens.

Primarily addressing the issue of fore-end number stamps within a circle, I know Peter has serious doubts about their authenticity, as we have discussed this after I was given a 4 (T) from a departed friend's estate. This rifle, X 33742, also appears to have been stamped with the same type of stamp set with circled numbers, as the rifle that started this thread. Depending on the force of the hammer blow, the circles range from non-existent, to very faint, or quite prominent. Of my five 4 (T)'s, naturally the ex-Trials and Longbranch are marked differently, but, two out of the three BSA's are marked with the same type stamps, the other being serial number M 36933. I have also seen photos of other rifles so marked, the first that comes to mind is on page 45 of David Gordon's, "Weapons of the WWII Tommy". If these aren't legitimate markings, the perpetrator must have been very busy and turned out quite a few of them. It is a bit odd though, that the rest of the rifle is correct. The fact that this occurs, in my case anyway, on two un-issued rifles, casts serious doubt on "the fore-end has been changed" argument.

Dinner is almost ready, so I won't get into the other areas that prove to me this rifle is probably authentic, but, for the interest of those of us with relatively small collections, could you folks with the larger treasure houses please look closely at your fore-end numbers and let us know how many you find with circled, (faintly or otherwise), numbers?

Thanks for your help,

Terry

My first Lee Enfield was a No4 MkI(T) dated 1944, N322-- serial number. It was unissued but was a "T LESS TELESCOPE" rifle. It had the same "number in a circle" stamps on the forend.

AFAIK, just a cylindrical stamp struck hard so that the shoulder of the stamp made an impression when the projecting number was driven that far into the wood.

I forget what I've read in Peter's books now. Was this done at manufacture or later?

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Originally Posted by Foxbrook

The photos that see show the front sight protector and magazine. Must have been taken off to show the markings on the barrel.
I also see that it has sold.
Foxbrook

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The front sight protector and magazine were missing when the seller originally posted the rifle for sale. Another Milsurps member sold the needed parts to the seller to complete the rifle.
I'd like to know how much it sold for.

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Originally Posted by Terry Hawker

No4MkIT, Lance and the rest of you gents,

Suppose it doesn't matter now, as it has sold, but thought I would render my two cents worth.

First off, I have to agree with Lance that the markings do look legit. Not that I claim to have the expertise of some of you folks, but, I simply base my opinion, (and that's all it is), on observation of other specimens.

Terry

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Thanks for your observations Terry. It's never to late to add to the knowledge base. My original thought was that this might have been a restoration of a sporterized rifle. This belief was further reinforced when I found out the magazine and front sight protector were missing.
As mentioned earlier I unfortunately also haven't seen as many No4T as I would like. In most cases if I want to see another example I have to buy it (not easy on my budget). Thanks every one for your input so far and my continued education. One of the things I like about this sight is the free exchange of information. If anyone has more to add please keep the information coming.

The numbers-in-a-circle stamps are a new innovation so far as I am aware and while they are available in the Armourers/ordnance system now, it's only in the past few years. Up until then, it was all imperial sizes in the old 'direct' format. The fore-ends were always (?) stamped with the rifle number ONCE THEY GOT INTO SERVICE and not at the factory. If that were the case and they were stamped/marked at the factory, there'd be no need for H&H to write the number in in pencil during the conversion phase would there?

They'd be marked on issue from Ord or when they got to the unit although I understand that Fazakerley new production was always (? once again.....) numbered. It was done because the properly fitted fore-end was an important/crucial part of the acuracy of the rifle.

During the very early part of our apprenticeships, the class instructor would get us all to strip an old well used No4 rifles (and later, No8's and L1A1's) to the last little part (yes, including the backsights), throw every part from every rifle into a pile on the floor and we'd have to fit up the rifle, accuracy and range test it. That meant refitting bolts and fore-ends, patching where necessary until it was perfect. Then we'd re-number the bolt and fore-end. We did this namy times and you couldn't proceed to the next bit until you'd done the last bit correctly. Talk about being soul destroying.............. time after time. I mean, how many butts can you patch, forends and bolts fit and backsights assemble?