Rare 1915 Ross MKIII sniper rifle

Copied from the *** August 2010 Purchases *** thread in the Member's Showcase Forum.

With many thanks to claven2, we were able to locate from an estate sale, a very rare piece of Canadian history with an ""all correct" and in superb condition, "all matching" 1915 Ross MKIII sniper rifle serial #223 complete with its matching Warner and Swasey scope No. 18, 1913 patent. The stock is also stamped "SCOPE NO 18" and the scope base on the rifle is also stamped "18". The original tooled leather case for the scope is C-Broad Arrowed marked and stamped with both the scope serial number (18) and the rifle number (223).

This sniper rifle is from the first 250 batch ordered by the Canadian Government and being "SCOPE NO 18", it would have been very early in the production run of these rare rifles, with not very many surviving all these years.

We've taken a few temporary pics, however, in the next month or so, we'll create a highly detailed and more complete photo montage showing all the markings etc., for inclusion within the Canada section of the main Knowledge Library.

Some pics of Canadian snipers in WW1 equipped with their Ross MkIII c/w Warner & Swasey telescopic sights.

Attachment 14910 ----- Attachment 14911

Regards,
Badger

A follow up ....

For those of you interested in the old Warner and Swasey scopes, the one below is for a Springfield 1903. It's essentially the same as the two lots of 500 that were bought buy the Canadian government to mount on the Ross MKII during WW1 as shown in the previous post. Some also ended up mounted on P14's at the start of WWII

BTW, this one belongs to my wife, not me. She has two of them and is thinking about mounting one on a 1903 as a shooter. ;)

Model 1913 Warner & Swasey Telescopic Musket Sights
c/w RIA M1908 Pattern Leather Carrying Case

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...20_Medium_.JPG


Model 1913 Warner & Swasey (44 pic photo montage ... click here)

The individually labeled pics in the photo montage also explain how the scope operated. The scope reticule has stadia lines placed in upper left quadrant of cross hairs, so they span the height (5' 8") of the then average man standing at a distance of 1,000 - 1,500 - 2,000 yards. On average, almost 100 years ago, people were a LOT shorter then today. :lol:

Regards,
Badger

5' 8" might still work over in the "Rock Pile", still...:p

Looking forward to seeing more of the Ross!

BTW, the Warner and Swayse isn't all that bad a set-up, except that the eye cup is kind of scary. I've have one on an '03 for a while.

Pretty!!!

Now where have I seen that rifle before???

"Taunting" us "a second time" w/ that link to here, Badger is...

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Originally Posted by jmoore

"Taunting" us "a second time" w/ that link to here, Badger is...

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:rofl:

Regards,
Badger

Congratulations on finding the grail of WWI sniper rifles, and the only complete original set in existence AFWK, and thanks for posting those excellent photos.

Is there a small inspection stamp on the inside of the female dovetail (on the scope)?

I hope you will try to research the history of this set and share that with us if possible? It must have had an interesting life as it does not look like it saw service in WWII for training as most of them did reportedly.

Have you removed the action from the stock and the butt plate to see if there is any identifying information anywhere?

Oh, and any notches cut in?

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Congratulations on finding the grail of WWI sniper rifles, and the only complete original set in existence AFWK, and thanks for posting those excellent photos.

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You're welcome …. :cheers:

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Is there a small inspection stamp on the inside of the female dovetail (on the scope)?

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I don't know as I've not had the opportunity to look that close. I'll be doing so and photographing in better detail, every aspect angle and surface I can, similar to what we've done for other pieces in the MKL. :thup:

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

I hope you will try to research the history of this set and share that with us if possible? It must have had an interesting life as it does not look like it saw service in WWII for training as most of them did reportedly.

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The provenance is excellent. As claven2 related to me, the owner died about 15 years ago and it's been in his family estate since. At the time of his death, a huge part of his original collection was sold off except for a few pieces, including this Ross sniper. I gather he was quite old and he originally obtained the Ross sniper in the 1920's. I guess the current generation of family finally decided it was time to sell it, which is how I heard about it.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Have you removed the action from the stock and the butt plate to see if there is any identifying information anywhere?

Oh, and any notches cut in?

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No, my wife says my tools should be for show only ..... :nono: .... as she says I'm dangerous with them. :lol:

I'm afraid to take it apart, but triaq has volunteered to help me with that, as well as to ensure it's properly preserved to last another 100 years. When he has the time to work with me on this, at I'll add detailed photos of what's underneath.

Regards,
Badger

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Originally Posted by Badger

The provenance is excellent. As claven2 related to me, the owner died about 15 years ago and it's been in his family estate since. At the time of his death, a huge part collection was sold off except for a few pieces including this Ross sniper. I gather he was quite old and he originally obtained the Ross sniper in the 1920's. I guess the current generation of family finally decided it was time to sell it, which is how I heard about it.
Regards,
Badger

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I wonder if the former owner kept any record of where he obtained it and from who etc? That was the information I was thinking of. If it was picked up in the 20s it would probably have come from whoever brought it back from France, and in your shoes, my goal would be to find out that in particular.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

I wonder if the former owner kept any record of where he obtained it and from who etc? That was the information I was thinking of. If it was picked up in the 20s it would probably have come from whoever brought it back from France, and in your shoes, my goal would be to find out that in particular.

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My sentiments exactly and I'd sure like to know who crudely scratched the initials "A.P." (might be "A.A."?) into the under side of the magazine. ;)

I can't believe a collector would have done it and I'd like to think that perhaps the original sniper to whom it was issued did this to identify his own piece. I know I marked my original rifle issued to me when I served in the 60's, just so I could fine it quick when grouped with my buddies. Of course this was against Queen's Regulations (defacing government property), but heck, nobody ever said anything to me and I had the beast for four years. :lol:

It would be great to lay my hands on an original "nominal roll" of soldiers to whom these sniper rifles were issued to. ;)

Regards,
Badger

Interesting, but that AP or AA looks very much like it was done with one of those electric engravers that used to be advertised in the back of Popular Mechanics etc. When were they invented and would a soldier in France in WWI have had access to one?

They take a firm grip to control, as this job shows. I wonder if it is actually "AH" with the line wandering over to the second upright line of the "H".

Edit: looking at it more, I think it is "AA" with that blob of rust confusing the issue. Does that fit with the initials of the former owner or did he mark other rifles in a similar way?

I think you'll find the rifles were divvied up between the battalions and the best you could hope for would be to try to determine which of the 3 or 4 (?) shipments to France this rifle was in (again, acc. to Without Warning). From there, you might by going through battalion histories, war diaries and nominal rolls be able to get some possible names, but the task would be long and tedious and unlikely to produce any definite results.

So much easier to work backwards from the source and so much more likely to produce results.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

They take a firm grip to control, as this job shows. I wonder if it is actually "AH" with the line wandering over to the second upright line of the "H".

Edit: looking at it more, I think it is "AA" with that blob of rust confusing the issue. Does that fit with the initials of the former owner or did he mark other rifles in a similar way?

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Thanks partner ... :)

I've been so busy with business travel and other commitments in the last month, I haven't had much time to really sit down and concentrate on going over this old girl really up close. The pics were quick and dirty, just to give you guys an opportunity to see something, but I'm hoping in the next month or so that tiriaq can come over and we spend a day focused on dis-assembly and a couple hundred pic photo montage for the MKL.

Appreciate your feedback and suggestions for research ... :thup:

Regards,
Badger

FWIW, we do know the collector who owned it was NOT in the military. (he actually died closer to 20 years ago and the rifle had been collecting dust in a basement closet ever since along with some nice Purdy double rifles and a Purdy 8 Gauge shotgun - don't ask what those sold for!). The story goes he bought most of his collection in the 1930's during the depression when some previously wealthy people fell on hard times and he only bought nice stuff. This and one or two other rifles plus a some WW1 Lugers were the only military guns when the collection was liquidated (in two batches, one about 15 years ago, and the last few pieces this year).

We also know his last name was Armstrong but we were unable to determine his first name. Whether he made the markings on the bottom metal are anyone's guess.

Has anyone noticed how much colour case remains on the bolt and bolt stop? The bore is perfect and this rifle is low-mileage. Definitely. I should know, it spent some time in my gun rack before it was delivered to Badger ;)

Good info. It should be easy to determine his first name. You should be able to get a copy of his will or probate papers too. The appropriate city directory at the public library will probably have him listed. You can usually work backwards from the address in those old Dominion Directories too.

Sounds like that's what the initials were anyway, which is good news.

And as for the "mileage" you can be sure that many a 'Fritz' was last seen alive through that scope. You're holding history in your hands there Badger.

Is there any slop in the scope mounts when fitted?

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Originally Posted by Badger

It's essentially the same as the lot of 500 that was bought buy the Canadian government to mount on the Ross MKII during WW1 as shown in the previous post. Regards,
Badger[/size]

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Slight correction.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Slight correction.

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Yes, there were 500 in total, delivered in two batches of 250 each ... :)

... but what I was pointing out was:

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Originally Posted by Badger

This sniper rifle is from the first 250 batch ordered by the Canadian Government ....

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Regards,
Badger

One more thought on this rifle. All of those I have seen photos of had the forend cut slightly proud of the middle band. Yours is cut flush. If you could find any WWI photos showing one of these rifles cut flush, you would at least have a photo that MIGHT be of your rifle.

And it would appear you have one of the reproduction rubber eyecups fitted to the scope as it looks thicker than the originals and does not have the holes to prevent suction on recoil. That and the colour and thickness of the rubber and the visible mold line around the lip.

Not finding fault in any way, just offering an opinion.;)

The cup is aligned for a shooter using the left eye BTW. Possible, but unlikely I think. Easily rotated of course.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

One more thought on this rifle. All of those I have seen photos of had the forend cut slightly proud of the middle band. Yours is cut flush. If you could find any WWI photos showing one of these rifles cut flush, you would at least have a photo that MIGHT be of your rifle.

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That's a great idea! Thanks .. :thup:

Claven2 who handled the rifle up close, thought that because the fore-end cut back is so very clean and well done, that it might have been done at factory or back at depot with good equipment on hand, as opposed to being done in the field.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

And it would appear you have one of the reproduction rubber eyecups fitted to the scope as it looks thicker than the originals and does not have the holes to prevent suction on recoil. That and the colour and thickness of the rubber and the visible mold line around the lip.

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Yup, sorry, my fault ... :o

I should have mentioned that I put that repro rubber cup on in place of the original which came with the rifle, but it's so hard and broken that it wouldn't stay on the scope. I had two repro cups that I got a few years ago for my wife's U.S. W&S scopes because they had similar aging problems with their original eye cups, so I simply used one of them for the photos. I'll include the original and lay t beside the scope in the final MKL photo montage. :thup:

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

The cup is aligned for a shooter using the left eye BTW. Possible, but unlikely I think. Easily rotated of course.

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Thanks .. :thup:

I'll try to remember to rotate it 180 degrees when I get to the large photo montage shoot, that I hope to accomplish this week.

Regards,
Badger

Badger,
I ran across your Ross sniper posts. This one has a short stock, is that the norm? In my Ross Rifle Story, page 180 the one they show has a full stock? Which is correct?
Thanks,
Bigedac

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Originally Posted by Bigedac

Badger,
I ran across your Ross sniper posts. This one has a short stock, is that the norm? In my Ross Rifle Story, page 180 the one they show has a full stock? Which is correct?
Thanks,
Bigedac

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Read the article, comments and examine the pics in the MKL...

1915 M10 Ross MkIII* Sniper Rifle Serial #223

You may also want to use the "Search Milsurps.Com" custom Google Search box in the top right corner of the web page. Use the term Ross Sniper to start with and you may find several threads that disucss full wood versus cut back stocks on Ross Sniper rifles. :cheers:

Regards,
Doug

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Originally Posted by Bigedac

This one has a short stock, is that the norm?

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Following what the boss just said, the first post in this thread has a picture you could examine... http://www.milsurps.com/vbpicgallery.php?do=big&p=1282

Jim,
Okey dokey, that answers my question. Thank you and Doug, great information.
Errol

Here's a few more for your interest. Note the sporting rifle (Lee Speed?) being used by the man closest to the camera in the sixth photo. A couple of P14s in the middle row right of the second photo. Plenty of cut down SMLEs and Ross MkIIIs. Fourth photo, Frank Iriam, second from left in back row. Last two: 4th CMR in Sept. 1918, uncut Ross MkIIIs and P14s.

Second last pic is Royal Newfoundland Regt, you can see the lower left man's collar dog. Third last pic has optics that are NOT W/S scopes...long and thin. Seventh has a LL by the look of it, you don't see too many of those in WW1 pics. These all done for sniper use, long since documented...

Thanks for the photos, great stuff!! Sad to think that all of them are now gone.
bigedac

The last two photos are taken at the same time and location. The collar badge is the moose head of the 4th Canadian Mounted Rifles, (reformed as infantry in 1916), 8th Canadian Infantry Brigade, 3rd Canadian Division. The triangle over a square shoulder patch is visible. The photo would seem to confirm that some snipers still used iron-sighted rifles even in 1918. The long thin scopes are probably all Winchester A5s or B4s. In the third photo, front row second from left you can see the W&S scope base on the Ross. The left hand man probably had an A5 since the barrel is cut so he had no front sight. Surprising how many are carrying standard SMLE's and hard to say if those were their "sniping" rifles or just for the photos. Makes you wonder if snipers shared rifles in some battalions. In the third to last photo, the five men in the rear rank left are carrying only pistols marking them as scouts; at least two others are also. The fleur de lis scout badge, 'borrowed' from the Boy Scouts, is visible on some right sleeves. The range photos are taken at the Canadian Corps sniping school at Mont des Cats. A lot can be learned from these old photos; in those days the camera didn't lie.

The Soviets were very keen on the Ross for target and sniping practice in the 20s and early 30s. We know they hadn't forgotten about them even in the 50s.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Sniper_%281931%29

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

. The collar badge is the moose head of the 4th Canadian Mounted Rifles, 8th Canadian Infantry Brigade, 3rd Canadian Division. The triangle over a square shoulder patch is visible.

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Roger that...

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

The long thin scopes are probably all Winchester A5s or B4s.

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I realized after they were No1Mk3s...so the shape of the optic makes sense. As for the whole iron sight question, many of those guys employed iron...take the three shooters at the Mont of Sorrel. Iron sights and held up the advance of the enemy with grievous casualties to them. I think one was as employable as the other.

Thanks for the history, as you most likely know history has become my business as president of the Aviation Cadet Museum.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Sniper_%281931%29

Some stills from the film. Looks like the Soviets had some sort of setup similar to the Austrian M95 system with a single rear "leg" and windage in the front base. I don't recognize the scope off hand, possibly an early Voigtlander or but maybe one of the Soviet's first efforts? Or something they captured from the Austrians in bulk?

The film looks interesting; they seem to have enough kit for a highland company; I wonder where they got that?

The Ross was probably a good choice for sniper training, which was later encouraged heavily through the OSOAVIAKhIM: accurate, quick handling, in limited supply and using a non-standard ammunition.

Somewhere in their museums and archives must be some interesting documentation on all this.

Incidentally, the Russians have been putting online large amounts of captured German documentation in the last few years. For those who can read German it is a gold mine.