Where did this 69 Enfield barrel come from?

Good day all,
I recently picked up a Faz No4Mk2 that has been converted to 7.62mm post service. Among it’s many modifications it has been fitted with an ‘69 Enfield made hammer forged barrel. My question is what was this barrel’s source? I was told by a respect and knowledgeable local Canadian Enfield collector that the “barrel that was offered to target shooters that wanted to do their own conversions.”
I’m selling the rifle so I’d like to know if this is accurate.
Here are a few photos and one at the end of the complete rifle:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...76Medium-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...77Medium-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...78Medium-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...37Medium-1.jpg

Strange - very similar markings to an Enforcer barrel - the same D with a half-bar across it (EFD)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0565-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0587-1.jpg

Think its from the L39 or Envoy, have one the same on a No4 action. Got the info from a forum member who was looking for a barrel for a L42.

( they are accurate)

Such barrels were available from Enfield commercially (not to individuals, too much trouble to do it yourself)

????? Pre-L42a1?:confused: Would Enfield be selling them off so early?

Not an L8 barrel...

I'm also curious about the action mods. Looks like considerable welding required to add that bridge to a No.4 Mk.? action.

Enfield apparently made about 10,000 of the hammer-forged barrels. Of these, about 2,500 would have been used on new L42, L39 & Envoy conversions, then an unknown number sent to military store as spares for L42/39. Hundreds or thousands of barrels were released into the civilian gun trade, where they were made up into L39/Envoy clones and P14 target rifles.

The rib brazed onto the top of No4 action was a fairly common experiment at the time that the first proper single-shot closed receiver target rifles were being introduced. The rib was thought to offer some stiffening to the action. In practice, it appears to make no improvement to shooting performance, or even a slight negative effect.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...90888323-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...90888321-1.jpg

No4's second picture.
The NP and markings look to be UK Civilian proof marks so it looks as if the barrel (or maybe the complete rifle) was in the UK civilian market at some time.

So, where's the largish stash of barrels?

Soon after the L42a1's entered the US market (1995?) I remember seeing a Numrich Arms/ Gun Parts Co. flyer advertising the "New L42a1 Barrels", but they were gone by the time I called, so either they had very few, or someone bought the entire lot!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmoore

So, where's the largish stash of barrels?

Soon after the L42a1's entered the US market (1995?) I remember seeing a Numrich Arms/ Gun Parts Co. flyer advertising the "New L42a1 Barrels", but they were gone by the time I called, so either they had very few, or someone bought the entire lot!

---

I imagine the military stocks were scrapped as soon as the L42 went out of service; either that or they're waiting their turn to be scrapped - nothing firearms related is released for surplus sale these days.

The problem with the barrels in the civilian Trade is that, in the hey-day of "first generation" target shooting when Envoys & P14s were all the rage, target shooters were changing barrels every few hundred rounds or so (in the belief that their poor shooting was due to barrel wear... LOL). That means that probably most of the available barrels were used up. Plenty of second-hand barrels exist in UK; gun dealers like Fultons will offer a part-used barrel is someone wants to rebarrel their Envoy. With many 7.62mm first generation target rifles now only worth scrap values in UK (target sights, magazines and target swivels go on eBay; rifle goes to auction), some of us take part-worn barrels off and keep them as spares for future L42/Envoy/L39 restorations.

I had many, many discussions with the late Wayne Mitchell on the heavy Enfield target barrels. Wayne had started collecting part numbers and dates in an attempt to identify barrel marriages however this data is no longer available. The Enforcer and Envoy numbers are well known.....each profile is a little different. I concurr with Thunderbox on the UK "take off" barrel market. Also Enfield made a whack of hammer forged barrels.....10000+ rings a bell. It was not uncommon to see them sold to target shooters for rebarrelling projects. Fit up was and is not difficult. Ron

I have a barrel that resembles that one on the starter post. It came in a paraffin sealed, canvas bag packed in grease. I bought the barrel from International, out of Montreal. If someone is interested, I can take a pic of it. It is now mounted on a Martini and with the help of a fitted sleeve to mount to the receiver, is chambered in 30-40 Krag, which I load with .308 diameter bullets.
The hammer finished exterior and taper are identical. Now, all of this happened in 1980. The barrels were on a special offer of $30/barrel. Being newly married and buying my first house, made even that paltry sum a bit of a stretch at the time. The barrel didn't have any stamps or knox areas on it. There was a tag on the bag, but it was so soaked in grease as to be illegible.
I remember, when we fitted it, the steel was extremely hard and difficult to machine/ream, even though the reamer was new and sharp.
I was also lucky enough to pick up a new in white No 1, and another 7.62x51 bbl (Palma Match chambered), again without stamps for $20 each. I wish I could go back and take out a loan or renegotiate my mortgage and bought all of them. There were several hundred of each. Alan Lever bought 250 of each at the time. They didn't last long.

There were a small quantity of new L39/42 barrels left in Ordnance after the L39 was declared obsolete and as someone else has mentioned, these were destroyed as part of the UN thinggy against the proliferation of arms.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rgg_7

I had many, many discussions with the late Wayne Mitchell on the heavy Enfield target barrels. Wayne had started collecting part numbers and dates in an attempt to identify barrel marriages however this data is no longer available. The Enforcer and Envoy numbers are well known.....each profile is a little different. I concurr with Thunderbox on the UK "take off" barrel market. Also Enfield made a whack of hammer forged barrels.....10000+ rings a bell. It was not uncommon to see them sold to target shooters for rebarrelling projects. Fit up was and is not difficult. Ron

---

PL is really the one to answer this, but as others have said, EFD made rather more heavy profile 7.62mm barrels than they immediately needed for L39's L42's Enforcers etc. Many of the surplus one were used to make up heavy barrel target rifles. The barrel shown at the beginning of the thread is a standard L39/L42 barrel, but with the early DDE (Design Department at Enfield) project number on it rather than the CR Ministry of Supply number which was applied, IIRC from 1970 onwards. Note this particular barrel is of 1969 vintage. As mentioned previously these barrels are worth hanging on to these days if in a good condition., especially if you have a somewhat worn L42.....
ATB

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunderbox

Enfield apparently made about 10,000 of the hammer-forged barrels. Of these, about 2,500 would have been used on new L42, L39 & Envoy conversions, then an unknown number sent to military store as spares for L42/39. Hundreds or thousands of barrels were released into the civilian gun trade, where they were made up into L39/Envoy clones and P14 target rifles.

The rib brazed onto the top of No4 action was a fairly common experiment at the time that the first proper single-shot closed receiver target rifles were being introduced. The rib was thought to offer some stiffening to the action. In practice, it appears to make no improvement to shooting performance, or even a slight negative effect.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...90888323-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...90888321-1.jpg

---

Very interesting… My rifle is virtually identical with the exception of the holes drilled into the rib. Likely done by the same smith.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roger Payne

PL is really the one to answer this, but as others have said, EFD made rather more heavy profile 7.62mm barrels than they immediately needed for L39's L42's Enforcers etc. Many of the surplus one were used to make up heavy barrel target rifles. The barrel shown at the beginning of the thread is a standard L39/L42 barrel, but with the early DDE (Design Department at Enfield) project number on it rather than the CR Ministry of Supply number which was applied, IIRC from 1970 onwards. Note this particular barrel is of 1969 vintage. As mentioned previously these barrels are worth hanging on to these days if in a good condition., especially if you have a somewhat worn L42.....
ATB

---

So not correct for an Envoy or Enforcer but good to go on an L39/L42 then. Anyone have an un-loved L39 action they can live without?
I sure wish I didn’t need to sell it as it’s a cool looking rifle but I need the loot at this moment. However even that will change with time.

The stiffening thing was offered by Fulton's, among others, and I think the Whitaker Special had it too. It doesn't seem to have been all that popular here, one seldom sees it.

There's a real absence of information about these barrels. It would be very benefical if folks could check their rifles and or take off barrels and post the following data; Rifle, SN, barrel marking and date code.

There seem to be a few of the DD(E) 24720/SK D69 392/K barrels in the UK and Canada. Been told the DD is a drawing number...for what I don't know; D69 is Enfield (EFD) 1969 and 392/k may be a pressure.

Comments?

Ron

Ron:
I picked up fine action SN PF198561 in 7.62mm 1.99" 22.3tons ( per sq inch omitted) with proof mark of an upraised arm with scimitar and NP beneath.

The stock was so *%^& horrible - must have been done by some crazed wood butcher around the camp fire with a dull hatchet who then added little brass ciger box nails and pleasant plastic diamonds ---- forunately the metal parts are really fine and the bore is excellent. A work in progress.
regards
roconn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rgg_7

There's a real absence of information about these barrels. It would be very benefical if folks could check their rifles and or take off barrels and post the following data; Rifle, SN, barrel marking and date code.

There seem to be a few of the DD(E) 24720/SK D69 392/K barrels in the UK and Canada. Been told the DD is a drawing number...for what I don't know; D69 is Enfield (EFD) 1969 and 392/k may be a pressure.

Comments?

Ron

---

They were also available as unthreaded 'blanks'. One now graces my ENVOY, but breeched up in a rather unique way.

Does anyone know if they were made threaded for the P14/M17 from the factory?

There were quite a few of them floating around in Canada, usually threaded for the No4 of course.

This the barreled action i mentioned in the previous page, and some pics of the action with the canjar trigger, note the bolt and the travel on the striker when cocked compared to a normal No4 Mk2 action

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF3187-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF3188-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF3191-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF3192-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cture260-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cture259-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cture263-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cture264-1.jpg

unthreaded barrels would have been adaptable to the P14/P17 or the Mauser 98, which began to come into use in the late '70s.

Old advert from the 1980s

Attachment 15322

Having a clear out and thought I,d post these pics of more numbers, first is a P14 barreled action, the other was on a No4 action

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF3203-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF3204-1.jpg

I can't seem to recognise the BB xxx steel batch number on the commercial Enfield barrels. The FB mixer is the common one plus a few of the others that we had record of but BB is missing from my books. Any ideas Enfield Lock?

According to the drawing DD(E)24720/SK/392 Issue 'O' the markings required were:-
1. Manufacturer's Code Mark (The ED logo for RSAF Enfield)
2. Year of Manufacture (Last 2 digits)
3. Batch Mark (The steel producer, eg BB306)
4. DD(E)24720/SK/392/O
5. Flaw detection mark (A small triangle to denote that the barrel had passed crack detection, added after drawing issue 'O')

Comments in brackets above are my own.
DD(E) stands for Design Department (Enfield), SK for 'Sketch', and 392 is the 'parent number' which would have been applied to all of the drawings appertaining to the L39, L42, and Envoy 7.62mm conversions. The designer's drawings were subject to numerous minor revisions, denoted by issue in alphabetical order: that at 4 above being 'O'. The '392/K' subscript on the original barrel in the thread is no doubt because they ran out of room above! On later production barrels the part number, CR 1470 was marked instead.
Not sure what 'BB' stands for; I believe that 'FB' is for 'Firth Brown'. The steel batch number is more usually stamped on the barrel in front of the knox form.
The raised scimitar is of course the London Proof Mark and the '19 Tons' the Highest Mean Service Pressure measured by the obsolete British base copper crusher method.

RSAF advertised and produced conversion barrels for No.4, P14, and Mauser 98 from 1969 into the 1970s, marketing them mainly through Fultons at Bisley. After a lull of several years a final batch of special 1 in 14 twist blanks was commissioned by Arthur Clarke: as in the advert above.

Very good to have your expertise with us Enscien. Can I ask if you know what became of the machinery these barrels were made on after the sale of RSAF(E) to H&K?

From what I've heard they had an unequalled reputation for durability. Can you comment from the technical viewpoint?

enscien....very good info. Do you know the manufacturing dates ranges for Envoy and Enforcer? I'm trying to purchase a correct barrel for a 1973 dated Enforcer and not having any luck locating one. Thanks, Ron

The old 7.62mm barrelling machines and anythign else that was newish was removed by BAe prior to the closedown of Enfield. Incidentally, it was sold to BAe systems and not H&K. These barrelling machines weren't ever used again, certainly afterwards. Only the L86/86 stuff was reused later and not all of that either

If you want to know what happened to the big barrelling machines, you'll need to ask BAe.............. but don't hold your breath waiting for their letter!

According to the old Enfield Armourer/engineering apprentices that I've just spoken to on another matter, the L39/42/enforcer/envoy/commercial/spares etc etc barrels were done on a batch by batch - as required basis

As I recall, tapered barrels with the 'Snakeskin' finish as above were produced on a vertical GFM cold swaging machine which was capable of hammering a tapered blank. These barrels then only required machining at the muzzle and breech ends.
Later barrels were produced on a horizontal 'Fritz Werner' machine which could only hammer a parallel blank. The barrels therefore had to be turned full length and have a normal machined finish, plus usually a stight step in the centre where they were supported by a lathe 'steady'. Some may also have polygonal 'Chordal' rifling rather than the traditional Enfield form but I do not have the dates.
All surplus machinery from RSAF was sold on-site by auctioneers Henry Butcher Ltd on the 16th and 17th November 1988. This was after shipping what was needed to the new Nottingham Small Arms Factory, and selling some items to RSAF employees who had bid for them. I believe that the GFM machine was bought by Geoff Lonsdale, a former shop manager of the barrel mill. The FW probably went to Nottingham and was disposed of when that factory was closed by BAE in 2002.
Properly looked after the barrels should, I believe, have an accurate life of over 4,000 rounds but others may have more detailed figures. As has been mentioned by others, used barrels should be available from scrapped first generation target rifles: try Fultons or English Armourie.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I can't seem to recognise the BB xxx steel batch number on the commercial Enfield barrels. The FB mixer is the common one plus a few of the others that we had record of but BB is missing from my books. Any ideas Enfield Lock?

---

Peter: After looking on the Internet I would hazard a guess that BB stands for 'Brown Bayley'. They were in business in Sheffield in the 1960s-70s, their Hecla works later being taken over by Hadfields who had much defence business. There is also a link with Harry Brearley, the inventor and developer of stainless steel and improved steel for gun barrels: he was manager of Brown Bayley 1914-1925. Prior to that he worked for Thomas Firth Ltd and John Brown Ltd.... who became Firth Brown!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rgg_7

enscien....very good info. Do you know the manufacturing dates ranges for Envoy and Enforcer? I'm trying to purchase a correct barrel for a 1973 dated Enforcer and not having any luck locating one. Thanks, Ron

---

Sorry, I don't have any records of dates. Try the L42 collector's information thread above, and index.htm for Enforcer info.
See also #28.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by enscien

As I recall, tapered barrels with the 'Snakeskin' finish as above were produced on a vertical GFM cold swaging machine which was capable of hammering a tapered blank. These barrels then only required machining at the muzzle and breech ends.
Later barrels were produced on a horizontal 'Fritz Werner' machine which could only hammer a parallel blank. The barrels therefore had to be turned full length and have a normal machined finish, plus usually a stight step in the centre where they were supported by a lathe 'steady'. Some may also have polygonal 'Chordal' rifling rather than the traditional Enfield form but I do not have the dates....

---

Reminds me of the vertical rifling machine built at Long Branch someone was telling me about the other day, that would do six barrels at a time. I assumed it was verticial to avoid gravity acting on the broaches(?)

Enscien, thanks for that information; it's really useful. I recently took a chance on a No4 Mk1/2 7.62 conversion (£200 so not too much to lose), and am trying to trace its antecedents (and found this forum while doing so). The barrel carries the details that you describe (DD(E)24720/SK/392 etc), so that reassures me that it is a real Enfield barrel. The year code looks like D69, so I assume that the conversion was done in 1969. The rifle has the abbreviated foreend and heavy barrel, a PF serial prefix and has had a sniper cheekpiece fitted to make a kind of L42 look-alike. A forward scope mount block has been added, but the rear scope mount is a curious affair resembling a blank ladder sight-sized piece of metal hingeing on the rear axis pin. To my surprise, with a scope mounted it's as steady as the Rock of Gibraltar. I,ve put about 30 rounds through, and the rifle seems pretty good. I wonder if any other members have come across this arrangement?

I am very tempted to change to a sporter-style stock to give an Enforcer appearance. Sacrilege to some, I expect, but I do find the scope a bit low with the conventional butt.

Good to be an Enfield owner at last, and look forward to finding out a lot more from this forum.

That's merely the date the barrel was made. The switch to 7.62 for NRA shooting didn't really get going until the early '70s.
The mount sounds like the Parker-Hale one. These can develop some play at the rear.