Scout Regiment tripod

Hello Everybody

I picked up a 1942 NZ telescope tripod at the War and Death Show at Paddock Wood. I want to use it at the range but it needs some adjustments. Can anybody answer a few questions?

1. It is 28 inches high. Why is it such a ridiculous height? It can't be used prone (too high) and it can't be used kneeling or sitting (too low). Any ideas? I am thinking to cut it down to 20 inches so I can use it prone - otherwise its not much use to me. Or would this be a bad bubba-ing? I know they are around in the more useful 20 inch format.

2. What was used to keep all of the legs together during transport - was it a leather strap for instance?

3. What kind of carrying strap was attached to the brass fitting on the leg and the brass attachment on the telescope ferrule? Any idea where I can get one?

4. Was there some kind of wooden plug on a string that fits into the clamp when the telescope is not in it? Any idea where I can get one?

5. Was there any kind of soft covering inside the clamp to avoid damaging the scope?

All views are gratefully received.

Cheers

Steve

Ok, it sounds like you have a "Stand, Instrument, No21 MkV"
It wasn't specifically for the Tel Sct Regt, but could be used with it. Initially it was probably intended for use by signallers where the observer was seated on the ground.
I have seen quite a few tripods of the same type only shorter offered from time to time- IIRC most of these had WW1 dates on them. I don't know if they were made this way or modified.

The tripod has a leather loop on a canvas strap to hold the legs together when closed. It buckles to the leather cap that protects the top and forms a sling for carrying. The wooden "plug" for the bracket is just round with a string connected to one end. You could make one up from an appropriate sized dowel or old shovel handle or something.
The top clamp on mine I lined with a little stick on felt to protect the tube of my telescopes.

Here's a couple of relevant pics to help answer your questions.
One other point, It may be worth looking for a little Parker Hale tripod like the white one in the pic below. I have used it on the range with a little felt around the 'scope tube under the springs and prefer it to the taller one (which I wouldn't cut)

"Ok, it sounds like you have a "Stand, Instrument, No21 MkV"


That's the job, thanks Son,

Was there a different tripod specifically meant for the telescope?

Even sitting down a guy must have been some kind of midget or contortionist to get down to this. I could do with it being 6" higher to use it comfortably.

I would expect that many of these may have been cut down to personal preference during WW2 - it would seem the obvious thing to do, especially by the colonial boys. But I am loathed to destroy the true originality really.

Cheers

Steve

---------- Post added at 12:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 PM ----------

Actually, I could make some shorter legs and keep the originals in storage.

Steve

Making new legs sounds like a great idea. You could use either wood or light metal tube to whatever height suits best. :thup:

There was a short legged version as well. I used to have one and will check and see if I have a photo.

Son - the shorter Parker Hale Tripod - do you know if these saw service issue ? I had one of these given to me with my Scout Reg. Telescope a couple of years ago and wondered whether it was remotely right for 'field' use. Now, I'm not a shooter I'm one of those dreaded WW2 re-enactors whose 4T is, in reality, just a paperweight and I haven't taken it out on display as I was unsure of its 'correctness' for WW2.

Thanks for any sort of reply on this as it's been a conundrum, wrapped in an enigma for a while and it would be nice to take it out to play if there was a chance it was correct - otherwise it stays in the attic with the rest of the kit :lol:

Paul

Hi, Paul.
I don't think the Parker Hale tripod was ever an issue item. I think they came about shortly after WW2 when there probably was a large quantity of quality surplus military telescopes available for fullbore shooters. (maybe someone has a Parker Hale catalog that might date them)

I agree with Son. Lots of the small bore rifle clubs had the short stands with their cheap ex WD scout reg scopes during the 50's right up until probably, even today. My sons school CCF bought 6 scout reg scopes in the 60's for 16 shillings each (that's 80pence today). They still have their short stands that I imagined were just cut down heliograph stands or Stand Instrument as stated by Son once again.

The actual stands were used in the instrument shops for all manner of applications

FWIW, I browsed through my limited collection of PH catalogs and found their short-legged "Sensitive" tripod available from at least 1935 to 1977. That's the one with the coil springs. An early catalog also lists "renovated" military tripods with short or medium length legs with the clamp/wingnut arrangement to hold the telescope.

Thankyou Steve H. I'd say that would explain everything! Unless there is a LoC entry showing mods to shorten tripods, or a pic of a shortened military tripod in service.....

I'll have a look through the LoC index and see what I can find, bearing in mind the books I have only go to 1926.

Thank you to you all for these posts - I'm humbled by your knowledge, gentlemen.

Absolutely fantastic to find out something about it. The scope and tripod came from an old gentleman who had served as a sniper in the Seaforths during the war he told me he'd been issued the tripod with the telescope but I couldn't see how a silvery tripod could ever have made sense in the field - there's absolutely no evidence that this was ever painted.

Sadly he's no longer with us to ask - as with so many of our veterans - so all answers are gratefully received.

Paul

Son,

The "was the short tripod ever issued" question was debated quite a bit on the WWI forum at Great War Forum

I have both a long and short tripod dated 1915 or 1916. The short one shows no evidence of ever being modified. Fit, finish and patina of the legs on the short tripod match the rest of the unit and looks just like the long tripod. Based on this, some others that I've seen that were similar and some debatable photographic evidence I'm of the opinion that the short tripods were issued as such. Something else that argues against modification is that all the short tripods I've encountered were all the same length. If these were home done mods the chance of all being the same would be nill, whereas if they were made to a pattern...

I haven't seen or heard of any evidence the short tripod was an approved mod. The extracts from the LoC I have (Skennerton's) don't go into the instrument stands, but if Parker Hale were offering them for target shooters modified in two different lengths, then it's more likely they were done by PH. They could have bought crates of them for peanuts and set up their shop to modify and then repaint the finished articles.
I'd be keen to see any official references to the shortened size- it does come up as a topic from time to time.

Son,

Here's the thread on the 1914-1918 forum Signalling Telescope Stands (Tripods), - Great War Forum
There are pictures of my tripods there and the reasons I think my short one is original to WWI.

Now I'm not certain enough about whether or not they were issued in WWI to invite anyone to settle this out in the parking lot. However, from having the article in hand and from having seen others that match it exactly I am more inclined to believe they existed in WWI. Not having the LOC entry doesn't mean they didn't exist it just means we haven't found the LOC entry yet. I too, would be happier to see a photo of one in the trenches or an LOC entry.

I remember 7 or 8 years ago a guy had a shed load of these tripods (painted all green) bought up from N-Z . Said he was going to shorten a lot 'cos he didn't think the tall ones were as saleable . This may account for short ones being all the same height !

Boulretbill,

All of the ones I have seen or seen photos of that are Australian or New Zealand marked (including one in my garage) have been painted a light green and made during WWII. The ones Son and I are debating are marked with WWI dates. The metal is an anodized brass or bronze and the legs are natural with just a coat of clear varnish. Take a look at the Great War forum thread I posted a couple of messages back. PH did make a short metal tripod in the 50's and 60's. The legs are a cast metal, usually painted a light grey, the holder for the scope is a V shaped bronze with a tab and several small springs that strech over the top of the scope to hold it in place. I'll see if I can post a picture of the ones I have this weekend.

Son's second picture in his first post shows a tall New Zealand mount and the short PH post war one I just described.

Peter,

The helio stand has differently shaped legs than the instrument stand. The WWI scope stands, both tall and short have round legs. Each leg is like a piece of broom stick. The helio stands have piece-of-pie shaped legs, as though a single large diameter pole had been cut into thirds.

Thanks CH Bill , I was still thinking of Devils Owns dilemma (to chop, or not) since I've also been there . I'm more shooter than collector but I appreciate originality , so being on a tight budget and with no use for a long legged tripod , I didn't buy . For the same reason I didn't buy a nice WWI model at the Wear & Piece Show about 3 yrs ago . However , patience rewarded me with one of those PH tripods found at Bisley in 2008 as well as (at last) a nice leather case for my scope , with an arrow mark but no strap . It's only taken seven years !!!

I've got one of these short No.21 Mk.V stands here as well. Was being thrown out in the rubbish when the old club premises were cleared out. Top of the legs might have been shortened - three screw holes and only one screw in each.