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Help wanted to identify this 1907
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Looks to be an original No.1 bayonet that has been converted into the profile of a No.5 (the 8 inch blade and the bowie style tip is pure No.5), probably a WW2 era conversion.
Could be an early British experimental/trials bayonet in the No.5 style, or one of the many shortened Indian conversions which they liked to do on the good old No.1 bayonet.
Skennerton does have an Indian version listed as I57 which has had the MRD slightly enlarged to 17mm, don't ask me why. Its an unusual one. Cheers.
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Looks to me like a classic case of a man with a broken Patt '07, bayonet, a file and a hacksaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter Laidler
Looks to me like a classic case of a man with a broken Patt '07, bayonet, a file and a hacksaw
After sobering up the morning after I thought that may be the case, but doesn,t explain the enlarged muzzle ring, was hoping for some german stamps so i could match this with the SMLE on the Enfield forum, but no stamps to be found. :lol:
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The absence of a frog stud doesn't seem like something that would have been done in service. The frog appears to be British, by D.R. Melbourne Ltd.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
marysdad
The absence of a frog stud doesn't seem like something that would have been done in service. The frog appears to be British, by D.R. Melbourne Ltd.
Couple of pics shows the the locket, and no sign of ever having a frog stud. The locket and the chape are the same make (GF).
After catching up on lost sleep and on a closer inspection has had paint on the scabard in the past (olive drab).
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF3193-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF3194-1.jpg
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It could be one of the later Indian 07 variations th eV or VI is supposed ot have a bowie type blade. Interested in why you wanted German marks on a UK/commonwealth blade?
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Thanks for the info Carl,
Reference to the German stamps was just a joke regarding a rifle under question in the Enfield forum, as Peter and I have posted on the thread.
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1 Attachment(s)
Going by the markings on the scabbard, it was made by the same manufacturer that made the US M1917 2nd type scabbard. Note the same GF in oval stamp in photo attached. The Indians were also particularly fond of the leather slide-on combination frog/belt hanger arrangement - they had ample supplies of good leather available to use. Cheers.
Attachment 15308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
shippingsteel
Looks to be an original No.1 bayonet that has been converted into the profile of a No.5
I think the same...
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I agree with Peter! There was to my own knowledge. Nothing in E.M.E.Rs to the effect of modifiying 1907 Patt bayonets to a shorter type. ONLY rounding the ends to make D.P variants. And indeed, these were done to bayonets that had been condemed due to sharpening & becoming undersize in length generally. Thus extending the bayonets life from what would effectively have become scrap & would have been stripped for parts & the main blade assembly destroyed. My Father who like me was an Armourer & served through time frames a lot earlier than myself. Had one identical to this one shown. (But without the muzzle ring enlargment) He had simply reshaped & reground the tip from a snapped blade. & then CORRECTLY shortened & refitted the scabbard End Tip. (Chape) It looked proffesional & to the unknowing eye, 'Correct'! It was done simply as something to do, to see if something usefull could be done with a broken bayonet. It made a reasonable knife, so im told. & of course, with any squaddie, something that was different that nobody else had on thier belt in the field! It hung on the wall in every Armourers shop he was ever posted to. (Along with countless Weapons that had been dug up on excersises & restored by my Father)I remember seeing it as a Kid. He was & still is, an avid bayonet collector. The end result was, that Bayonet was purchased by the Late Gordon Huges. A well know & respected bayonet collector & Dealer who lived in Brighton. Gordon was informed it was NOT an original Piece as such. But made my Dad a very good offer on it as he didnt really want to sell it! & as we were as a family, fresh out of the Army & Dad was attempting to put a goodly sum together as the deposit on a house in Civvy street. a LOT of things had to go! You wont belive some of the extremely rare guns he had had in storage for over 2o years. Trials .303" for example. But that is another story!..................
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Tankhunter, I think you may be forgetting about Indian usage. They had plenty of these British made 07's and they made shortening and converting them into an art form, particularly during the WW2 period. As you say, this may well be a 'backyard' conversion of an old broken blade BUT it may also be one of the Indian conversion jobs, which were done in much the same fashion anyway.
Skennerton's bayonet book shows a whole series of Indian No.1 conversions including this one from a sealed pattern list "No.1 Mk VI = No.1 Mk I grip & crossguard with No.5 Mk I blade (with fuller)"
He also has one illustrated as I57, the No.1 Mk VI* which is made without the fuller. It has the exact same profile as the bayonet in the original post, so it could be a possibility. Cheers.
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SS: When I said NOTHING mentioned in E.M.E.R.S, That is exactly what I meant. E.M.E.R's were British Army Engineering Regulations & Standards for us Armourers to work to. INDIA was indeed run on British Lines & Priciples in theory. BUT, as you are aware, they were a Law unto themselves on what they did for thier Army & Whatever Mods they came up with! I have seen some Ingenious, if not in some cases. Downright Dangerous 'Mods' done to certain equipments from India! I know neccesity is the Mother of invention BUT. For example: When Buffer componants have broken & collasped in a GPMG Butt assembly on the 7.62mm MAG Machine Gun.(Bellvue Washers) You DONT replace them by putting rubber erasers inside the Buffer housing!!! You see what I mean?
Clever little devils, but check EVERYTHING they have done before using it!!! :yikes:
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As a matter of interest Tankie and others, the Indian Army STILL use EMER's and their BREN, L1A1 and No4 EMER's are still exactly the same as ours but their L1A1 varies slightly, presumably to cater for the slight differences. All in English too! It doesn't say anything about using pencil rubbers in the buffers though! That'd be a thought Tankie, using them in the big HB .50 Browning..................
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I dont know if the Indians use .50" Cals, do they peter?
I wouldnt like to try putting anything other than the correct fibre washers in a Fifty!
Jesus, I must have manufactured, assembled, inspected, test fired Thousands of 'Em over the last 11 years! I have seen fractures & failures like you wouldnt believe!
Anything other than the right buffer washers would leave you with a comming out Party in your face! Still.... When in Da Face of adversity?...............:eek:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter Laidler
As a matter of interest Tankie and others, the Indian Army STILL use EMER's and their BREN, L1A1 and No4 EMER's are still exactly the same as ours but their L1A1 varies slightly, presumably to cater for the slight differences. All in English too! It doesn't say anything about using pencil rubbers in the buffers though! That'd be a thought Tankie, using them in the big HB .50 Browning..................
Interesting Peter, obviously a tried & tested system works?..................... I would hazzard a guess that there is a lot of different info though? For example, i know for a fact thier L1A1 SLR Rilf bayonet is different. It is a LOT longer & has wood grips rather than the pressed steel ones on ours. There must be other differences with thier equipment also. it would seem to follow?
I am aware they still manufacture th L4, L1A1 Rifle, L2A3 SMG, 105 Light Gun Etc. I have seen a few of the LMGs & also the L1A1's, not too bad either! L1A1 Rifle sling swivels are flat stampings like thier version of the SMLE in 7.62mm all minor stuff, but the difference is in the detail!.................
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agreed but it also looks clumsey , i agree someone cut and reshaped , think that muzzle ring adjustmen could fit a turked rifle of some sort ?
