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Hi,
I suspect the answer is "you can't", but I was wondering if anyone has any clever tips or tricks for removing black leather dye from brown leather?
I have acquired a British Pattern 1939 leather pistol ammunition pouch with this very problem. I *think* the leather is pigskin.
Thanks,
Mark
Hi Mark,
the most leather colours are based on methylated spirits. You can try it, but i think it will only remove the upper layers, except you will dip it completely into methylated spirits. But i have no experiences how the leather and the other materials will react.
Regards
Gunner
Results using lacquer thinner can be very good, as long as you understand that it will remove everything from the leather including the required oils in the leather. These oils must be restored.
It can't be done and, as suggested above, it shouldn't be attempted, especially since what you have is a fairly rare piece of "kit". The leather version of P39 equipment was designed and made as a stop gap when quantities of web equipment were in short supply. They were often used for "Dad's Army" (the home guard) and some units required that their equipment be died black. Best to leave it as is, depending on the dye used and how well it penetrated the leather, you would have to remove half the thickness from the surface and then a whole quart of pure neatsfoot oil wouldn't restore what you have lost.
You can lighten it but probably never completely remove it. I would get some cotton swabs and a pair of stainless lockable foreceps. Wear rubber gloves. Lay the leather out on a smooth clean wooden surface and saturate the swab with the spirits. For those who live in areas that don;t sell methylated spirits, it's just another word for pure alcohol with a slight amount of methanol added to it so that alcoholics won't drink it. Pure alcohol will also work. Anyhow, saturate the ball and slowly mop the surface, one small area at a time. Use dry clean paper towels to dry the leather after each spot application. This will take a LONG time and will not be a 100% solution but should improve things. You will neet to revitalize the leather afterwards - I would suggest Pecar's or a light application of neatsfoot. And I do mean light - don't saturate the leather.
An update: I tried white spirit to see if it would act as a solvent on the dye, but it had little effect. So that being the case I have decided not to risk damaging it with any more aggressive cleaning methods and leave it as it is. I have given it a light coating of Pecards and the leather is shiny and supple. Hopefully a nicer example will turn up at some point - it is to go with a P1939 belt and pistol case I already have.
Mark
Glad you decided to stop, P39 kit is pretty rare stuff and is only now being appreciated for what it is. While you may prefer the original color sometimes we have to live with what we have. As I said above, some units were required to blacken their kit and once leather is blackened it is blackened forever, nothing can remove it. And please remember, whenever possible leave the leather as is but if something needs to be added to replace lost oils, a light coating of PURE neatsfoot oil is far better than Pecards.
As an educational opportunity, could you provide information as to how neatsfoot oil is far better than Pecards? I have only been using Pecards for 30 plus years, but never too old to learn.Quote:
Originally Posted by gew8805
Certainly. For short term use on non-archival materials (those without historic importance) Pecards is a fine product. Work boots, belts for everyday use, reenactors' accoutrements and other common items for everyday use can be safely treated with Pecards and most other modern "preservatives" with no damage whatsoever, as a matter of fact the use of a treatment like Pecards (in all it's different forms) will benefit working leather that will be used and, at the end of it's useful life, disposed of. But for antique leather that should be preserved for the future do as little as possible and that most certainly means that you should avoid putting petroleum products on them. Yes, Pecards contains petroleum products, read the label. An historic item like a Civil War Cartridge box or belt, a WW1 leather jerkin or Leather P14 gear and German accoutrements should not have the Pecards treatment. This also includes your grandfather's knife scabbard that may be passed on to your grandchildren.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers
30 years is not a long time for an inanimate object, it will long outlive you. Careful handling of old leather will do far more in protecting it than will slathering goo on it. Keep it in an area with controlled humidity (60% - 70%) and keep it out of direct sunlight and at a constant temperature. If on display in an open area, keep it clean – wipe off dust. If you absolutely have to do something to re-moisturize the leather, use PURE neatsfoot oil but only a light amount, too much oil will damage the leather by causing swelling of the grain and eventual hardening bringing about cracking and crazing.
Yes, 30 years is a not a long time, as I have a Randall knife sheath my father treated regular with Neatsfoot oil starting about 1973, and today the leather is coming apart. It never had any Pecards used on it, and no need to bother today as the leather is too far gone. Neatsfoot oil is good for your boots that you probably won't wear over 5 years, but not your prized leather.
The two Randall knives shown below have each had their sheaths treated with a preservative. The top knife was made about 1960 and has had Pecards used on it for the last 30 or so years. The bottom knife was bought for my dad about 1973 and he treated it with Neatsfoot oil.
It is recognized that Neatsfoot oil darkens the leather.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../28cdbpe-1.jpg
:rofl:
Well Johnny, it is obvious that we will not convince each other since this is the second time you have brought your Father's knife sheath into a discussion of neatsfoot oil. Let me say that there too many "unknowns" here:
(1) What kind of neatsfoot oil did your Dad use? Pure neatsfoot oil or neatsfoot oil compound? There is a BIG difference in the two.
(2) How often did he apply the oil and how much did he apply each time? Most people think "If a little is good, more is better" when it comes to neatsfoot oil. Not saying your Dad did this, but some people will fill a coffee can with oil and drop the scabbard in it to sit over night, effectively drowning the leather. Too much oil, whether pure oil or one of the compounds containing mineral oil, can severely darken the leather, no doubt about it, it's the nature of the beast. Heavily used working horse harness needs oiling once every three to five years - that's on a Mennonite farm where the horses are the only propulsion for farm equipment. A leather knife scabbard, even one used regularly like the small one in your photo, only needs oil once every 5 to 10 years. In 37 years, this scabbard should have been lightly oiled 4 to 6 times. I have a feeling that this one received more oil than that. True?
(3) How much use did the two scabbards get? Obviously the larger knife, while carried a little, is a "safe queen" compared to the smaller one. The smaller knife has seen more carry and exposure to sunlight, dirt and abrasion common to a well used leather item. When you say that "the leather is coming apart", what do you mean? If the leather is cracking, splitting, hardening or flaking, those are indications of too much oil or some other treatment. Is the stitching failing? That indicates the use of a neatsfoot oil compound. Mineral oil, used to cut neatsfoot oil to make the compound will damage linen thread, pure neatsfoot oil will not. Over oiling (with anything) causes leather cells to swell and burst causing the leather to fail, especially under the stitching where the holes made by the awl act like perforations making failure certain.
Not being able to hold the knives in my hands, it is hard to make a completely accurate assessment of their condition but I do think that, based on over 30 years of working with leather with hide to finished product I have made what I consider to be a pretty accurate judgment of their condition. And please understand, I am not saying anything disrespectful about your father, he obviously liked this knife, used it a lot and took good care of it, carrying it often and taking what can be considered good care of it and it's sheath. It is obvious that it has been well used where the larger 1960 knife and especially it's sheath show much less use. Too bad it was treated with Pecards, it would have looked better and retained it's original color better if left alone, it probably didn't need any treatment.
I would love to be able to ask my dad, but he died 12 years ago. The only things I do know is that he did use Neatsfoot oil on the sheath and it is disintegrating today. I'm sure he didn't have your expertise in applying the Neatsfoot oil in just the exact amount, but he thought he was doing the right thing.
Here is one you haven't seen before. I bought a complete pistol rig about 15 years ago, and at the time the 1918 dated G&K holster was still nice but very dry. It has had regular Pecard maintenance and to the best of my knowledge had not started the inevitable disintegration you forecast for leather treated with Pecards.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...0/j9pkap-1.jpg
The thing is gentle men that leather even after it has been tanned is still a living thing and needs to be fed.
Depending on the item ie: a rifle bucket a saddle or a bayonet scabbard all require different types of treatment. By useing a petroleum based product you run the risk of destroying what suppleness there is in the leather and rotting of the stitching, or life for that matter. You are far better off useing a natural based preservative such as lanolin or lanolin based products that actually feed the leather or a polish which has a high wax content (corduba wax being of the better type), this will preserve a lot longer and not destroy the natural patina of the leather. The military manuals of ww1 describe a presevative based on cod liver oil as a base ingredient for saddles, all the time ive been mucking around with old leather items the less you do to them except a polish or use of hide food tends to be the better option.
If you would like any other suggestions please dont hessitate to ask
Regards
Fergs