Lithgow No1 Mk 111 info needed

Hi All,

New to the forum and the wealth of information here is staggering...:D

So I just started a collection of Enfield's and I picked up two from an older fellow locally..

One was an unfired out of Cosmo PF N04 MkII out of ROF.......

But I also was able to obtain the following Lithgow No1 Mk 111*

I am hoping someone can tell me a little something about this rifle !

She seems to head space fine and the bore is bright shiny with relatively deep lands..

Pics follow but the markings are as follows:

( All numerals are arabic unless otherwise noted )

MAGAZINE

Body
Large Numeral 4 with a Small 2

Follower

3 with a broad arrow and a crown with EO over a B

TRIGGER GUARD AREA

BA on trigger

B on Guard

NOSECAPE

BA on side with two stars on the front of each ear


FRONT BAND

FR with a CROWN

FRONT SIGHT

WA43

REAR SIGHT

FA III

BARREL

BROAD ARROW

CROWN with a set of crossed flags and L over P in the flags

MAVI

A over II with a star on the left side

5 44

RECEIVER

MAVII (twice)

Top of receiver a C with 67685 under it

CROWN with a set of crossed flags and L over P in the flags

MA
Lithgow
S.M.L.E.
III*
1941

MULTIPLE STAMPINGS OF a Star with an A in it and the following under each stamp:
4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Also a CROWN above a 27 above an L

MULTIPLE STAMPINGS of a star with an A in it and the following under each stamp:

I II III 4

where the bolt turns down on the top top of the receiver J4162

Also Import mark

IA CO SAC CA AUSTRALIA 303

BOLT

M on bolt head (not much wear on it but has been fired)

Underside of handle J4162

Rear Face of handle C with 67685 under it

By the knob a crown with a set of flags

BUTTSTOCK IS MARKED AS SHOW IN PICS also a troop disk with a 1 and a star


That's all the marks I can find....

Wood has dings etc....

Picked up the rifle a bando of WWII type VII ammo and the bayonet for $ 200... Hoping I did not get taken for a ride.......:lol:..seems like a straight up old fellow though...

Probably a parts gun...but being there are some matching numbers on bolt handle and receiver etc..might make me think it's not .....

Need some suggested reading on these enfields !!

Pics follow:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_1176-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_1177-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_1178-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_1179-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_1180-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_1184-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_1185-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_1186-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_1188-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_1189-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_1191-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_1193-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_1194-1.jpg

Here's a start - check this link out as it has a lot of those markings identified

http://home.earthlink.net/~smithkaia8/

Thanks... COuldnt find the Crown and the L over P in the flags...

Stocks Stamped HV...High Velocity

CMP Military Police?

CMP is probably CMF (Citizens Military Force) take a closer look

Crown over L and P is the Lithgow proof mark

3MD is Southern Command (Australia)

Some nice markings. CMF - Citizens Military Forces (militia), at the time we had the CMF and the AIF. 3MD issued to Third Military District, being Victoria. I'd pay 1/2 again if you wanted to sell it!

* Above post had said 'Commonwealth Military Force' prior to edit by Amatikulu after I posted. This made my post look like repitition, kind of annoying. It isn't a ****ing contest. I prefer to thank people for providing more accurate information, putting me straight or correcting my errors.

nice rifle and good price, way to start enfielding!

If that is a parts gun, I'll take it!

You have one heck of a nice Australian Second World War Short Magazine Lee-Enfield Mark III* there, friend. It was built in 1941 and factory rebuilt in May of 1944 (same time as my own 1918 was rebuilt) and it is VERY doubtful that there is anything seriously wrong with it.

Download "The Lee-Enfield Rifle" by Major E.G.B. Reynolds from the Military Knowledge Library (see stickies at top of this page) and read all about it. This book is dated but it is also the only book written on your rifle while the original factories still were in production. After the rifles went out of production, a HUGE amount of historical papers were burned.

Can these rifles shoot? Mine had severe bedding problems when I got it (cracked right at The Damned Crack) and so shot a group 1 inch wide by 14 inches high. Repaired The Damned Crack and glass-bedded the critter and it started shooting 7/16 of an inch at 100. That is for an off-the-sandbags 2-shot called group from a dead-cold barrel (sometimes called 'Sniper's Zero' or 'Hunter's Zero'). I was shooting Sierra 180 flatbase bullets ahead of 38 grains of IMR-4895, bullet seated to the overall length of a military Ball cartridge. Flatbase bullets are ALWAYS best for Lee-Enfield rifles. The load I gave you is a bit mild (2250 ft/sec) but it is also extremely accurate. It is my own test load and match load for these rifles.

The Australian rifles have barrels that are good enough that the ONLY way you will get the best from them is to handload. Put it back together carefully, by the book. Feed it with the best ammo you can crank out. If it shoots anything over 2 inches, come back and ask for help.

BTW, just the bayonet for one of these sells for $75 here. You didn't do badly at all.

Have lots of fun. You are well on your way to becoming addicted to Lee-Enfields!
.

Sorry to put the dampers on it a bit but I'd be a bit wary of the yellow paint that's been scraped off but still visible under the scores in the butt. Just have the rifle checked over by someone who knows what he's doing because yellow paint on an Australian SMLE butt (usually.....) indicates a well used former Cadet Force DP rifle

Thanks for the comments and all the valuable information all...

Unfortunately the gunsmiths around where I live are not well versed in these type of arms I suspect. They deal mostly with the sporting type rifles/shotguns, not that it does not mean that they could not make a valid assessment of the condition of the firearm.

To my UNTRAINED eye, albeit I have been around firearms my whole life, that and $ 2.50 will get you on a NYC subway.....I can find no defects with the rifle. From every piece of information I have found and looked into the rifle checks out.

I can find no cracks ANYWHERE in the stock. The received appears sound....I have gone over every millimeter of it with a magnifying glass looks for cracks and defects (this does not take the place of adequate test equipment though)
Barrel looks great..no twists bends bulges etc...rifling is sharp...bright shiny bore... etc.... It will not close on a field gauge... (I should get a whole set)

So, to the esteemed group that is here that has much more knowledge than I do with this particular rifle, I do take heed of the yellow....

Inspecting the area where the yellow is and it is only on the buttstock. The surrounding wood does NOT appear to have been refinished, stripped or sanded in anyway to indicate that the rifle had any yellow removed... Could it be possible it came into contact iwth a marked rifle in a rack? I do no t know.

If I rifle came back to an armorer for a once over WHAT key points of inspection are done? Not that it really matters to this rifle but for general knowledge I would like to know the process. It can go far to help in making an initial assessment of a rifle prior to purchase.

Even if this rifle checks out find I do not think I can bring myself to fire it.....why batter a piece of history....will it be worth a fortune...NO...of course not...but it is still history nonetheless....

I think I have decided to use some no4's for range use....not that it wouldn't be nice to put some handloads down the beast and see how she does :)

The biggest thing to check over is for head space. If in fact the headspace is a bit loose its somewhat easily fixed by purchasing another bolt head with a tad more thickness, and that just threads on with fingers.
As a counter point to Peter's mention of cadet rifles there has been plenty of discussion here that cadet rifles have seen less shooting than soldiers weapons and may have been much better maintained as cleaning is part of a cadets routine. There have been many owners of cadet enfields that are very happy with their rifles and I'd be quite happy to own and shoot one. Peter knows his stuff, so I'll always defer to his advice, and checking the rifle over is a good thing. It sounds like you know what you're doing with a rifle, go shooting if the headspace is good.

If the butt plate has lots of pitting from parade ground thumping then check the stock for cracks, then shoot it.

The only thing to be sure of is, tighten all screws, and make doubly sure that the big screw in front of the magazine is not loose. If thats not clamping on the wood it will split the stock length ways, right in front of your face ie got eyes? always always shoot with safety glasses.

*** UPDATE ***

NEVER EVER EVER Believe what someone tells you.........CHECK IT YOURSELF !!!..

Thanks to the valuable information here and on other boards about this rifle, I did the following (as it all got me thinking):

I PURCHASED A .303 FIELD .074 Head space gauge...

I checked EVERY rifle here....EVERYONE....they all checkout fine......HOWEVER......this rifle WILL FULLY close on this .074 gauge.....

So much for the last owner saying he checked the head space and it was fine.... :madsmile:

So the search will start for a new bolt head for it to bring it to spec.....

I will measure the existing bolt head and report back as to the dimensions...then a recommendation can be made as to what size I should look for....

I hope that is a reasonable assumption !

:thup:

Hi Nickjc,
How did you go with your search for a bolt?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 841NER

Hi Nickjc,

How did you go with your search for a bolt?

---

I elected not too.

I decided it was better to keep the rifle in the condition it is in for the sake of it's history. Maybe I'm nuts but that is what I am doing....:lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nickjc

I elected not too.

I decided it was better to keep the rifle in the condition it is in for the sake of it's history. Maybe I'm nuts but that is what I am doing....:lol:

---

You'll be certified sane if anyone here calls you 'nuts'. I'm here because I love the history...good for you!

I think you're right NickJC. I could see that the butt had been scraped down to get rid of the yellow paint as the sanding wasn't the work of an Armourer of any sort, by any stretch of the imagination either. So why don't you re-paint the yellow band around it and then stencil the DP marks back on, in red. There, you'll have a genuine DP rifle, Not rare but the real McCoy and another example of the breed. And if you do, I'll send you a set of the real DP stencills to use. You can't get more real than that can you?

This is a good example of what you CANNOT see in a DP or ZF rifle. I wouldn't mind betting that if you try hard enough you might get a bolt or a bolt head to close up the headspace. All very well so far but what you cannot see is the fact that the induction hardening of the locking shoulders has/may have broken through and it's THIS that has increased the CHS and not a worn bolt or bolt head

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I think you're right NickJC. I could see that the butt had been scraped down to get rid of the yellow paint as the sanding wasn't the work of an Armourer of any sort, by any stretch of the imagination either. So why don't you re-paint the yellow band around it and then stencil the DP marks back on, in red. There, you'll have a genuine DP rifle, Not rare but the real McCoy and another example of the breed. And if you do, I'll send you a set of the real DP stencills to use. You can't get more real than that can you?

This is a good example of what you CANNOT see in a DP or ZF rifle. I wouldn't mind betting that if you try hard enough you might get a bolt or a bolt head to close up the headspace. All very well so far but what you cannot see is the fact that the induction hardening of the locking shoulders has/may have broken through and it's THIS that has increased the CHS and not a worn bolt or bolt head

---

Many thanks

I would love to take you up on that! I would have course need a relative color match of the yellow as well as a pattern of the bands. The stencils would be neat as well

thank you!

Didn't have any RED paint but opted for a nice gloss black.

Does it pass muster??

Thank you to all for your contribution to this thread and lending your collective knowledge to my fledgling attempt at Enfield collecting !

** SPECIAL THANKS TO PETER FOR SENDING ME THE STENCIL **

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ture0013-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ture0022-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ture0032-1.jpg

A good genuine addition to any Lee Enfield collection. It looks a bit creamy in the pics Nick. Is it yellow? Incidentally, and I know I've mentioned it before but the UK MoD considered a variation of the DP No1 rifle for Cadet Forces. Originally to be the L60A1, due to an oversight, the No1 variation was designated the L59A2. Common sense prevailed and after 6 (?) prototypes it was abandoned and the DP No4, the L59A1 was the general issue

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

A good genuine addition to any Lee Enfield collection. It looks a bit creamy in the pics Nick. Is it yellow?

---

Oh it is yellow...I think the color space profile on my iPhone then to the PC is mismatched/not calibrated correctly... But it is YELLOW....

Looks like the ears on the nosecap are milled.
Looks nice anyway.