new old stock 1903a3 rebarreling question

I just had my local gunsmith put on a new old stock barrel on my 1903a3 for $125 (which is irrevelant). When I got it back it had a note on it that it "barely headspaced" and when I asked the gunshop owner (not the gunsmith) she took one of the two test fired rounds and set it on the glass countertop and let it wobble around until it stood straight up and then said, "yep that is good". So I left puzzled and should have asked to speak to the gunsmith. After looking at some of the forum posts it looks like some reaming or shim work could have been required.

I will be reloading for this rifle and wanted to get the longest life from my brass, which I guess I should just neck size anyway. But how do I know this guy just didn't do a quick shoddy job?
Is there a way to check the headspacing without specialized tools? Would I just have to measure the length of an unfired case, load it up and fire it and then measure it again to see how much it lengthened?

Thanks for any input.

no disrepect, but it aint rocket science,
pretty much line the witness marks up, finish ream, test fire, and be done with it,,
i ream till it will close on a chamber test round, or a live round with no fire control in the bolt,
commercial headspace gages are not all the same, look at your fired case, if it looks good, then go shoot the rifle, and see how it does, not sure WTF the wobble test is, but i would avoid having that person judge any weapon..
a note...if it was indeed a new barrel, it would have been short chambered, and the headspace would have been up to the person turning the finish reamer.. i may have gone a little too deap, but if it closes on a factory round easy, and the fired case looks good, id shoot it, and see how it does.
if you installed a used barrel, then you installed whatever issues the barrel had before it was removed.

I am probably worrying for nothing but I took off the extractor, measured a live round and then put it in the chamber made sure the bolt would close, then added pieces of scotch tape to the end of the round measured them and then chambered them. Here is my data (the round was measured with calibers w/ hornandy's .308 bullet comparison attachment (Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Reloading :: Metallic Reloading :: Tools Gauges :: Lock-N-Load Gauges-Formerly Stoney Point :: Bullet Comparators :: Bullet Comparator Kits)

Round: 3.724
1st tape: 3.726 Chambered fine
2nd tape: 3.730 Bolt was tight
3rd tape: 3.735 Bolt would not close

I don't think this really proves anything...

put the gages, and measuring tools away, put the books down, save the tape for Christmas.
go shoot the rifle.. your really over thinking this.
one real important thing to remember....this is a 47 year old combat bolt action rifle, and was made to looser specs then a target rifle, and made so that it could be repaired with simple basic tools.
if your in doubt, buy a set of headspace gages, and check it... sounds like somebody has been filling your mind with dangerous tails about headspace.

...I've used the " tape test " when I didn't have my gauges . Very rough info , but better than nothing. Yours sounds like it passed easily. Go shoot it.
Chris

You need to know this barrel was short-chambered when you gave it to the gunsmith. OK? So what did they do with it? Why is the chamber not perfect? You need to ask the 'smith these questions. Do not let them BS you, they received a short-chambered mint barrel. Good luck.

Milsurpmit

Some more second guessing…

The case on the glass is the “if it has excessive headspace the primer will back out enough to cause the case to wobble” test. I don’t trust it at all and it will not even began to work with crimped-in primers.

“barely headspaced” could mean, ‘just closed on a GO gage’ This word “headspace” is often used incorrectly. The only time that a rifle is ‘headspaced’ is during chambering or setting a barrel back or changing bolts. Checking headspace is when it is measured, most common is the gage, but the tape/shim, case AND a mike works.

Headspace is not some magical thing, 0.002” one way or another is not all that important, just as long as the bolt closes on the ammo you wish to use.

If you wish to buy a gage, obtain a GO gage, a mike and use shims. This can tell you what the headspace of your rifle is, not just that it will or will not close on some gage. Slow, but one man and one rifle,, who cares.

Don’t worry about this Clymer / Forester gage BS. The only time I used my Clymer gages is when I would set up a M14/M1A to function with both commercial and GI ammo. Other than this,, Foresters are fine.

Your rifle sounds OK,, shoot it.

45B20

Ok, after talking to the gunsmith he said he lined up the witness marks and cleaned it up, then check headspace and the bolt would close on the "go" and "no gauge" but not on the "field gauge" so it is within specs for a military rifle of that era. He said he did not have to use a lathe or reamer to install the barrel.

Guess I am stuck with a loose headspacing, I will go out and shoot it and see what she does. I guess it won't matter if I plan on neck sizing the reloads anyway.

Thanks,

Interesting,,,,,, that barrel might not be as ‘new’ as the seller thought.

But rifle is safe to shoot, so all is good.

Do not put too much into what the woman at the shop says but just smile and be nice.

45B20

What do you mean 45B20, I bought it from Sarco and it was in seemingly original wrap and was covered in black guewwy stuff that was on the outside and inside the barrel. I don't know much of anything on installing a barrel but wouldn't the gunsmith mill off the barrel just forward of the threads to "take up" that headspace, making the headspace smaller?

A Scrapco barrel? Oh, my. Mint, and unused, it was made by Remington with a short-chamber. The witness marks line up and you have to ream out your short chamber. Made that way. No thread work is done. Something is not right here. It should not eat a no-go gauge. Not mint, for sure. Let me add this:
Order a new, mint bolt body from Springfield Sporters. They have both S-C and Remington bolts. See if that cures your chamber issues. Good luck.

I guess I really don't know what "short Chambered" means. Is there a good explanation or link to one so I can understand what is going on? A new bolt body might be longer? Shouldn't I measure mine and see how it measures up to other people's? Is there a 1903a3 expert somewhere around Saint Louis, MO?

Could I have a bolt from a 1903 instead of a 1903a3? I purchased this rifle a year ago from CMP (mail order) and it has been the worst buy of my life. $500 for a rifle who's barrel was the worst I had ever seen, ripped my first couple patches to shreds and shot a 1 foot group @ 50 yards @ a benchrest. The follower would always eject the last round after I shot the 2nd to last round and talked to CMP who figured out they had mistakenly put a 1903 follower instead of a 1903a3 follower in the rifle. (at least that is fixed) The bottom of the stock has "amvets post 49" scratched into it so I guess the stock was from a drill rifle. (I can deal with that though) Argh, now I am up to $820 and I am still not done with it.

milsurpmjt

‘Short Chamber’ The barrel is not fully chambered during manufacture, so that when fitted to a receiver, index marks lined up, the bolt will not close on a GO gage, so that the chamber can be deepened, slightly, until the bolt closes on the GO gage but not on the NO GO gage. This is so to allow for variations in wear and manufacturing tolerances of each individual receiver.

You can use a M1903 bolt in a M1903A3 and visa versa. Please obtain at least one headspace gage and use it. The amount of money you have been spending on 03s go ahead and get two, Brownells.

Regrettably, there are dealers who know how to fake many things, some of which is “original wrap/packaging”. Sarco has a spotty reputation, I gave up on them about 15-20 years ago. However I have been told that they are doing much better now and then, maybe not.

Let us give Sarco the benefit of the doubt, and maybe the manufacture screwed up and then some how your barrel made it thru factory inspection. It would still be out of US spects, If you go back to Sarco on this they can say, ‘we sent you a good barrel it must be the yours or the gunsmiths fault, anyway it is safe to shoot’. And it could be your receiver, did you or the gunsmith check it with a Field Test Bolt. Did he check for lug seat setback??? And it could be your bolt.

The rifle is safe to shoot, if the measurement of the headspace bothers you do as Calif-Steve says and try a new M1903A3 bolt, might help a bit. If not,, shoot the rifle.

Just mark it up to education.

45B20

The gunsmith said he checked it with a "field gauge" and it would not close on it so it was safe to shoot. He didn't say anything about lug setback.

IF that barrel you supplied to the gunsmith was a ‘new’ barrel and was tightened until the index marks were aligned (one on the receiver and one on the barrel) the bolt should not have closed on a GO gage. That chamber should have required additional reaming (slight amount) in order for the bolt to even close on the GO gage. IF when the gunsmith installed that barrel, index marks aligned , and with out him doing any chamber reaming, he inserted the bolt and then the bolt closed on the GO gage and then on the NO GO gage-----SOMETHING IS WRONG----As he said,, the rifle is safe to shoot, it did not close on the FIELD gage, so IT IS SAFE to shoot. BUT the headspace should NOT be that large.

IF that barrel is new, then the problem lies with either your bolt or your receiver or both. If the gunsmith saw no obvious set back in the receiver were the bolt lugs seat,, then the problem is most likely your bolt is worn. (I would feel better if the gunsmith had measured the seats, but that is his call.) To test this a Field Test Bolt is used, (this is NOT a headspace gage) it is a special bolt held to the min. manufacturing tolerances. The Field Test Bolt IS use with a FIELD headspace gage. It tells if the bolt is worn out or the receiver is worn out. If the Field Test Bolt closes on a FIELD gage this tells you the receiver is worn out, if the Field Test Bolt does not close on a Field gage this tells you that the bolt is worn out. In your case, just get a new bolt and see if that makes the headspace tighter. But you must use a headspace gage to find out. And let me repeat, YOUR RIFLE IS SAFE TO FIRE AS IT IS.

Now if a new bolt changes the headspace little or none at all and there is no bolt lug seat set back in the receiver---THEN you are back to the barrel being the problem.

Buy a new bolt or shoot the rifle the way it is, makes no difference.

But you should understand how the M1903 is made and how it works and its limits. You should know enough to ask the right questions and understand what the gunsmith tells you and when someone is BSing you. Buy a copy of TM 9-1270 “Ordnance Maintenance, U,S, Rifle, Cal. .30, M1903, M1903A1, M1903A3 and M1903A4” Jan 1944. Read especially Section III, Inspection. This will save you this confusion and perhaps some money.

Gages

When specifications are drawn up for a cartridge, there are dimensions for this cartridges and there are tolerances for these dimensions, a minimum and a maximum. The US Military wants to be sure that their weapons will chamber all cartridges with in this tolerances range. Sam wants to be sure that his firearms will chamber the largest cartridge that will be available.. Sooo, the GO gage is made to the dimensions of the maximum cartridge. The head space gages go up from there in 0.001” steps.

Actually most ammo is in the mid-range of these tolerances so you can have a rifle that will not close on a GO gage and will chamber a round. However this can cause problems if you run across cartridges that are at the max dimensions. If you can tolerate these restriction and when installing a new 03 barrel you do not even need to deepen the chamber although the bolt would not close on a GO Gage. Just be certain of your ammo.

Field Test Bolt

In WWI the bolt lug length was held to” -0.509” +0.5105, during WWII the bolt lug length was held to:
-0.509” +0.511”. The lugs on the Field Test Bolt were 0.509”.

45B20

ok,
lets be the devils advocate...first,, SARCO is known for selling used parts as new, as well as import reproductions as GI...amoung other things, likely thats the case....all new replacement A3 barrels made after 9-43 were short chambered.
another issue you may have is a stretched receiver,, id need more info on that, to be more correct.. pictures, maker, serial ect.
and finally...
this whole thing of just turn the shoulder back,,,brings that headspace right up...its easy.... NOT!!
anyone who says that has never done one.
heres how that happens.
you turn the should back just enought to get one complete turn from the barrel, remember the A3 has a square thread, so your taking a lot of that shoulder.
but you forgot the big picture....ok, now you taken the shoulder back,, now my bolt wont go in....sure it wont.... you have to turn the chamber face in the same amount that the shoulder was done, then recut the bolt notch on the right side of the chamber face...remember, the A3 has a coned breach...and you have to use a special cutter to do that job..
then walk over to a mill and recut that extractor notch... no mill? will get out a hand file, tape the edges accross the notch so you dont bugger it up, and file the notch,.. might get lucky and get that done in a hour,
then... re cut the chamber, only now, you may have a step as the old chamber was likely over sized a bit...
so,,,, now, figure an hours lathe time and 2 set ups. most charge 75.00 an hour. plus a 45.00 set up.
now add an hour mill time or hours labor....75.00 in most cases...
then reinstall the barrel... thats another charge, and finsih ream it again..another charge...
why all these charges you ask? this wasnt the gunsmiths fault, he did what he was suppposed to do, and from what you said,, did it right.. id bet if you used a GI set of headspace gages that it would gage right up, and likely be a little short.
if your barrel pased field reject then it is safe to use, your bolt may be the issue as well, many bolts are worn from manual of arms training...

one question...what maker is the receiver???Remington Smith Corona or other.

Do you guys really use the witness marks for index? I have found that they are sometimes close but seldom right on. I line these up by the perpendicular center line of the receiver and the perpendicular center line of the bore and front sight keyway.

iv rebarreld hundreds of 03,s A3,s and 1917,s, and have yet to find one that was off, i have seen them off on M1 Carbines, and Krags.

I recall that back in '03 I had Eric Pierce of National Match Armory make me one of his match '03 rifles. Sent him an '03 and a "new" Remington 8-43 barrel I'd bought from Sarco to install. He said it was WAY out of spec, so I had him install a Krieger instead. Have heard that Sarco is really inconsistent quality wise.

Reciever is Remington S/N: 3886xxx (from CMP)
Oringinal barrel was Remington 4 groove June of 1943
New barrel is Remington 2 groove July of 1943 (from Sarco)
Underneath the bold handle there is an "R" so I guess it is Remington it looks pretty worn but doesn't look like an excessive amout. The sides of the bolt's lugs are worn down shiny but teh back of the lungs don't look worn. (I would think it would be the back of the lugs where you might loose material and then headspacing would open up?

What do I know.. Next Sunday I will be in the country and be able to test it. I will have a full report after that. Would it be of any use to measure the brass before hand and then after? Of course if it is accurant enough who really cares. I would be happy with 3 MOA.

just look at the brass, if it shows signs of cracking, or more then usuall squat, then worry...other then that...just shoot, and enjoy.
i wouldnt worry about the barrel, im sure it will be just fine, hard to say about your bolt unless i saw it with my own eyes.

When you say "more than usual squat" does that mean a bulging or shiny ring near the head of the case?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by milsurpmjt

When you say "more than usual squat" does that mean a bulging or shiny ring near the head of the case?

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yup...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chuckindenver

if your barrel pased field reject then it is safe to use,

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Unless you are in the habit of installing barrels, the only gauge you need is the field gauge. Chuck is right on with his advice.

I notice that SOG has '03 bolts in their latest flyer once again at a reasonable price. I like the '03 and '03A3, and I have found that it is always beneficial to have spare parts in the bin.

I bought the dozen bolt deal from SOG last year. Nice bolts, cheap, too.

Sarco is Sarco but I have never heard that the 2 groove 1903-A3 barrels they sell are anything but GI.

I have one from Sarco and one I picked up at gunshow ( that may be from Sarco too for all I know)

From gunshow in wrap on top. From Sarco not in wrap on bottom.
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https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF2022-1.jpg
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The Unwrapped from Sarco is definitely not used.
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https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF2029-1.jpg
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JR

sarco buys private inventories, so, likely they assumed what they had was new, when likely it was not.. very well could have been a packed barrel from the 60,s

Scrapco has a big project of taking 2 groove barrels and re-cutting them into 4 groove barrels. I would avoid all of their 4 groove barrels. I always assumed the 2 groove barrels were OK. Now, I'm not so sure. I have to think someone has tinkered with that barrel. No idea who or where.