Gentlemen!
In late 50th early 60th some British helicopters were fitted with window mounts for machine guns. I'm looking for details this mounts
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Gentlemen!
In late 50th early 60th some British helicopters were fitted with window mounts for machine guns. I'm looking for details this mounts
UNless this was some RAF modification, I've never seen a helicopter mount for a Bren! At 30 rounds before you stop and re-load, it'd be a waste of time. Maybe the Browning M1919 or L3.
As for the GPMG, they have been fitted into everything except my car. There will be hundreds of different variables. What particular one are you looking for?
Peter, this is answer me from other forum: "On 225 Sdn all our WW10s were fitted with pintles in the door and port cabin window for the Bren gun...". WW10 - Westland Whirlwind. Bren gun - not part of helicopters armament. It was weapon of landing troop.
The only comment I can make on that since we don't know the origin of the comment is that I have only been involved in one instance where helicopters had MG's fitted into the cabin. The mount and guard rails (I think the RAF fitters called them 'taboo tracks' for some reason) have to be absolutely foolproof and therefore somewhat complicated. There must be absolutely NO chance whatsoever of the bullets hitting the rotors, even in the most extreme circumstances, for obvious reasons. And this requirement must extend a bit further than telling the door gunner '.........don't shoot above the door line' because when you're shooting and the thing is banking, you don't know where you are!
The mounts we had on this side of the pond (USMC, immediately post-Vietnam), were all pretty simple lash-ups, either a bar pinned into the window frame with a pintle mount in the center, or (in the Hueys), a post and pintle type arrangement, also pinned into the "sill" of the doorway. There was also a double strap (one from the floor/one from the ceiling) set-up that's still occasionally in use today to mount an LMG on the aft cargo ramp.
I'm of the belief that it was entirely possible to do serious injury to one's self with all of these mounts...but I never tested my theory. ;)
We currently use the 7.62 GPMG, M60 and Mini gun in the Puma and Chinook, and the navy use a M2 or M3 (1100 RPM) .50 cal on their Lynx
Apparently those crappy M60s came as part of the package with the Chinooks. I hope we wouldn't have touched them otherwise.
We had the early M-60's in Australia in the 60's and they were dire compared to the then new GPMG's. The latest M-60 is a vast improvement and we have a couple of them at Warminster. But, alas, still not a patch in the GPMG........
That said former pilot of RAF and Army helicopters. I think that not difficult to modifity for helicopter pintle mount from vehicles as Land Rover or Champ
I found one photo with Bren gun on British Belvedere helicopter
http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/506...9C89C783688B46
Looks like a Mk3 with the bipod disassembled leaving only the head fitted.
Link to pic is down for me can you re up please ?
ATB Kevin
Here you are Kev, photo belongs to getty images, if there is any copyright probs, mods please remove.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...50676970-1.jpg
Interesting spent brass catcher bag !
And the proof of how bad the M60's are Peter, is in the fact that the US now also use the GPMG. In the guise of the M240! Better also, I would say, in N.A.T.O spares interchangability. Yes, some componants are different because of FN M.A.G variation. BUT, the important 'Bit's that matter are the same! 'Imitation, is the Sincerest for of Flattery'........Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Can any of you RAF types identify the helicopter that it's mounted in? We had those Belvedere thinggies in Malaya and although I never knowingly flew in one, they just looked about as aerodynamic as a piano to me. They flew everywhere with 6 or 8 of those huge 44 gallon containers full of petrol lashed into the front of the working bay, presumably so that they could decant it if they ran out of petrol. I know that when they landed close to civilization, they had to have a proper fire-engine present unlike everything else where you just had a wheely-bin like fire thing. I remember being told that a fierce tracker dog got loose in one once, got a bit frightened (they went everywhere in the helicopters.....) and went ape-sh-t. Snapping and snarling and biting all and sundry until one bloody and even angrier Maori jumped on it - in mid air no less - and throttled it to death.
Yes......... what helicopter is it?
Looking at the space available, it could even be a airplane rather than a chopper.
Is the rank badge on his wrist any clue?
The badge looks like a Air Load Master wing on a Warrant Officer badge or Flt Sgt as I'd expect ALMs with the rank of Sgt to have woven cotton badges. With me being a current RAF NCO I dont recognise these older badges.
It's Westland Belvedere :) People say, that Hispano gun also was mounted in BelvedereQuote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...elvedere-1.jpg
I think the the Air Load Master has the Bren sticking out the Port window that can bee seen to the rear of the helicopter in front of the rear engine/rotors.
The "Belvedere" was withdrawn from service in March 1969.
Info taken from http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_..._belvedere.php
Mmmmmmmm........, I remember now why I always thought that they were about as aerodynamic as a piano. If I remember correctly, they had a big side door too, where they loaded on their return petrol supply, in big, blue 44 gallon drums. Frightening!
The original pic of the side mounted Bren in the Belvedere has now gone,but have just been watching this -
BBC iPlayer - Soldier in the Sun
About 19 minutes 20 secs in shows a similar view.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...elvedere-1.jpg
Well worth a watch,Titled - Soldiers in the sun , a BBC ducumentry First transmitted in 1964, this informational programme, shot in Aden (Yemen) during the state of emergency, follows the Army fighting against increasingly violent insurgents.
ATB Kevin
Lovely bit of film. Almost 50 years ago. And the place hasn't seen peace since.
Peter,this is probably more up your street -
Jungle Green: Borneo 1964
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...jgborneo-1.jpg
BBC iPlayer - Jungle Green: Borneo
First transmitted in 1964, this programme follows the lives of a group of British soldiers from 40 Commando Royal Marines, as they set up camp and patrol the North Borneo jungle, in search of elusive groups of Indonesian border terrorists.
Although it's got L4's in it,it's a bit of period film that has a bit of everthing for weapons and kit spotters.
ATB KG
A mix of '44 and '58 webbing although we only had '44. Note the L4's had the early 'mixed fleet' red oblong marker on the side (see above photo) that has 7.62 in black marked thereon so as to avoid any confusion. The early GPMG's on trial, kept unloaded in the jungle because until something could be found to keep the loose belts out of harms way, they would be torn out and the links distorted. In Malaya proper we kept to Brens but Borneo/Marines used a webbing water bottle carrier. The 50 round belt box fared even worse!
Did it show the Iban trackers No5 rifles or big Savage shotguns anywhere - or did I miss it. Have you ever seen rain and mud like it..... Your kit was wearing out as soon as you put it on. Strange he commented on the jungle boots. Ours were thin rubber soles with ankle reinforcers with khaki canvas uppers up to mid calf with a few laces and the top 2/3rds just hooked in place with long green laces. They just got wet and dry along with the terrain and everyone seemed to like them. They only lasted a few dayts but you got new ones dropped or re-supplied. That's if the radio's worked in the foul weather.
Good nostalgic film
The RM Major debriefing the 2nd Lt at the end is Major Tony er..... I forget his name at the moment but still with us and lives near High Wycombe
Just been reminded that it wasn't Tony, but Major Dennis Sloman. Tony - Dennis....., easy to mix them up though!
You're right there Peter. There was a big sliding cargo door on the starboard side.
The story about why the Australian Army bought the M-60 instead of the FN MAG-58 for its GPMG was that the General officer who headed the selection committee was supposed to visit the UK and the US, see both weapons demonstrated, etc. and then bring his recommendation home. He apparently went to the USA first and was wined and dined so well by the Yanks that he never actually got to England. He lobbed up back in Canberra and told them to buy the Yank gun.
When I went on exchange to Austrailia in 1977 to train with 8/9 RAR we carried the M60s in the rifle platoons. The only time I saw the Brens was in the bush at Tin Can Bay I think, and they were with a group of Ferret scout cars. Dismounted role. Local protection. The Ferrets had 1919 Brownings mounted in a small open turret but I don't know if they were .30 or 7.62 because I never got close enough. I was thinking at the time they must be 7.62. I thought the Aussies somehow got the M60 through the role in SE Asia with the Americans. Ease of procurement and all that.
If the Aussies followed the Brits then they would be .30 cal L3A2s rather than 7.62mm
Peter, I think you should set up your police Mini with an L7A2. Not sure if a hood, (bonnet), or roof mounting would be best but they would certainly complement each other quite nicely and stem the possibility of ANY rioting in Oxfordshire! Brian
Gentlemen!
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/l...WessexV019.jpg -is it truly L4 in the window?
Nope, its a Bren .303 mk1, humped butt and drum sight. Note the Browning .303 (Mk2?) machine gun on the mount, I imagine ther is a matching one on the other side. Is there a caption with the photo? I didn't know that the Wessex was ever fitted with Browning .303s.
If I had to give an opinion I'd say that it was a particularly Nayy thing used in/on aircraft carriers in Aden or the Radfan/Libya etc or out there somewhere during the 50's when the Navy still had 303" Brownings that had been removed from aircraft and Brens as ships stores. Certainly in the late 60's they still had 303 Brens and rifles. Maybe a helicopter anorack can identify the year or so by the helicopter mark/type
It's RN Westland Wessex HU5 fitted with Westland weapon platform. This modification could be armed with 0.303 MG, 2in rocket pods and SS-11ATGM. Later 0.303 Browning was replaced by 7,62 GPMG. In addition helicopter could be fitted with both side windows and door mounts for GPMG and, as it turned out for the Bren gun :)
Purely by chance, I came across, on ebay, a feed chute with MOD F731 still attached (NAVAL) which is identical to the one fitted to the Browning. Was the HU5 known as the commando varient?
Gentlmen, i think it will be intresting fo you.
This is ATDU Technical Note Installation MG and rocken launchers on Whirlwind Mk7 from 1962
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0...jA0cXYyR3RLSDg
Thanks for this pic! Now I know what to do when the zipper gives out on my cartridge collection bag.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit plumber