1942 dated No5mk1 Jungle carbine,

Hi All,
My first post here, I recently recieved into my collection a No5 Jungle carbine,
As its the first one i've ever handled / seen. I could do with some advice whether its an Ishapore conversion.
No4Mk1 has been scratched out on the side of the breech, Its been restamped No5mk1 on the band behind the trigger guard.with Serial number.
It is marked up Property of the US Govt .
The sighting block numbers has been sanded down to reduce it from 1300 to 900 yds.
It has traces of Olive green paint on the the metalwork.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rbine002-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rbine004-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rbine005-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rbine006-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rbine007-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rbine008-1.jpg

It is a No. 4 converted to a No. 5. Not done officially, either an aftermarket or gunsmith special. No. 5s were not made until 1945.

As has been said, at first glance, you do not have a No5.

The rifle appears to be a converted No4 originally made by Savage in the US.

No No5s were conversions by Ishapore or anyone else. They were built from the ground up by the Royal Ordnance Factory in Fazakerly, Liverpool and BSA Guns in Birmingham. They were built from 1944 to 1947.

A correct No5 rear sight should be sighted up to 800 yards.

Hi , don't dismiss your "No5" as a fake . These guns were being used by the Brits after the war in the Far-East and according to the Oracle (Ian Skennerton) some armourers were known to be fitting (used) No4 actions to their No5 carbines to help cure the zeroing problem , apparently with some success . The green paint was also a period addition to reduce rusting in humid jungle conditions , so your gun is a seemingly genuine in theatre modification (does that make it rare ?) which was used for popping at commie insurgents along the borders of Malaya/Borneo or thereabouts.....enjoy.

We'd need to see whether it has a No5 barrel before we go down that route Boulet. That course of action wassn't a 'modification' as such as just a necessity. If 70 rifles came in from one of the needy Pacific Rim nations or the Malay or Singapore Police, then it was important that none were written off for various political reasons. So we'd make sure that they got the required amount back by fair means or foul. And if that meant a bit (or even a lot.....) of cannibalisation here and there, then so be it. While we could draw down our strategic stockpiles as we were pulling out anyway, these nations coulldn't so they remained fully equipped..... at our expense. The main problem with writing off No5's was the bodies spreading at the rear and the feeler gauge would enter with the calibrated bolt in place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pebblemonkey

No4Mk1 has been scratched out on the side of the breech, Its been restamped No5mk1 on the band behind the trigger guard.with Serial number.

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Do you have a pic of the No5 MkI stamp? I see the pic of the leftside buttsocket, but I am only able to make out the Savage "S", 1942, and a few letters at the bottom - FE. The S/N and US Ordnance mark (bomb) are too blurry to make out and I am unable to see No5 MkI.

Hi All,
I will take some more pictures of the Carbine in normal daylight as I had lots of problems with the flash.
I don't consider it to be fake , just some RAOC Armourer's recycling/ modifying No4s with No5 parts.(somewhere in some Jungle clearing).

I failed to mention in my first post that when I stripped it to clean it up the internal metal work had been lightened and so has the cocking handle (milled out).

My main question is the Serial number will it trace back to a No4mk1 or to the No5mk1.


Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jona

It is a No. 4 converted to a No. 5. Not done officially, either an aftermarket or gunsmith special. No. 5s were not made until 1945.

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Jon--10 whacks with a wet sling. Prototype No.5 builds began in 3/44 and production was running in May 1944. must have been a typo. p.

If you take the wheels, bumpers and grill off a Ferrari Testarossa and put them on a Porsche 911 would you have a Ferrari or a Porsche?

If you put an American Lyman Aperture Sight on a Australian Central Mounting Plate is this an American sight, a Australian sight or just a Mongrel Bastard.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP5239-1.jpg

Without a birth certificate and written proof of WHO your mother and father were you could very well be considered a bastard child of uncertain parentage. ;)

I'm afraid Pebblemonkey that your ideas of Armourers is somewhat removed from reality......... They haven't been part of the Ordnance system (the RAOC) since 1942 and the sheer notion of an Armourer......... or anyone, doing a barrel change in some jungle clearing is just, well........., believe me!

Anyway, back to the plot. Check and tell us whether the barrel is a lightened No5 barrel or just a chopped No4 barrel. If it's a chopped No4 barrel then regardless of the FE serial number (it looks like FE1-4? to me), the rifle is someones home made bodge up. I think we need to see the muzzle end of that fore-end too because I'm seeing something that definately ain't an Armourers work. But that's just my opinion

Quote:

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Originally Posted by breakeyp

Jon--10 whacks with a wet sling. Prototype No.5 builds began in 3/44 and production was running in May 1944. must have been a typo. p.

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Hope that sling hasn't dried out :madsmile:

From another forum - a survey of No5 Mk1 serial numbers Vs Date.
Here are the 1944 ones :

80XX - ?/44
81XX - 5/44
A125 - 7/44
A1089 - 7/44
A2056 - 8/44
A23XX - 5/44
A2852 - 6/44
A2267 - 8/44
A37XX - 8/44
A51XX - 8/44
A6530 - 8/44
A68XX - 8/44
A7363 - 9/44
A832X - 9/44
A8705 - 9/44
A7247 - 8/44
B2122 - 9/44
B4666 - ?/44 ( Date = 9/44 based on S/N comparison ) *
B6420 - ?/44 ( Date = 9/44 based on S/N comparison )
B746 - 9/44
B8102 - 10/44
B91XX - 10/44
C33XX - 9/44 ( Anomaly )
C4018 - 11/44
C6024 - ?/? ( Date = 11/44 based on S/N comparisons ) *
C61XX - 11/44
C6480 - 11/44
C6635 - 11/44
C86XX - 11/44
D21XX - 11/44
D3629 - 11/44
D6218 - 12/44
D7690 - 12/44
D8333 - 12/44
D9248 - 12/44
E1627 - 12/44
E3907 - ?/44 ( Year = 44 based on S/N comparison )
E54XX - ?/44
E6752 - 12/44
E7299 - 1/45 - ( Anomaly )
E8538 - 12/44
FE164 - 11/44
F6388 - 12/44 ( Anomaly )