No.4 T questions

Hello gang.
I'm totally new to Enfields and I've always wanted one. Well I picked one up at the local gun auction. Its a 1945 with a 1945 Mk 3 scope. Its came with its original storage box and the scope has its scope can. The receiver has the T stamped into the left side but nothing else. The band above the trigger is marked M47C 1945 it's serial number and a TR. The scope does not match the gun and neither does the mount. My questions are: The front section of the stock is numbered to the rifle. But the front stock and rear buttstock totally dont match. Their colors are totally different and buttstock even seems to have a glossier finish. The buttstock does have the S51 but the number by the cocking piece don't match the scope. Did they sometimes not match? Also the top handguard isn't ribbed isn't it supposed to be? Also someone told me it might be a replacement receiver. How can I verify this? Ill try to get some pictures tomorrow.

If you remove the butt stock, I believe there's a serial number stamped on the lip of the butt stock and it should match the rifle's number.
I've never removed any of my stocks to see but was told they are there.
How about some photos and how much was it? Sounds nice, Ray

Well I found out that the scope mount is a postwar. Has the serial number towards the rear mount.

Just order a copy of Capt. Peter Laidler's excellent reference book on the No.4(T) from BDL Ltd. you will find ALL the answers to ALL your questions in that Bible of a book, a bargain at four times the price. Unfortunately, you should have read and studied it BEFORE you bought the rifle! But all may not be lost, good luck.

http://www.bdlltd.com/An_Armours_Per...Laidler-HC.jpg

All the best,

Curly

Here are the pics. I found out its from a estate of a lawyer that had 132 guns. Apparently he's had it for a while. Any feedback is most welcome

looks correct - scope and can match but obviously not to the rifle. Not sure what the pic of the loose scope is doing :)

Whooops that M73B1 pic got mixed in. Guys the problem with this rifle is there is no Stamping on the left side of the receiver besides the T. I dont think this is a century made gun but the no identification on the side of the receiver is throwing me off. Also the different color stock pieces is driving me nuts lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 31pickemup

there is no Stamping on the left side of the receiver besides the T.

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Nor should there be. The maker (BSA), the date, the serial number and TR are on the butt socket. (Where they should be.)

The marks under the muzzle are English Commercial Proof - Gunmakers Company (London)

Different stock colours..................., Hey, I've fitted literally hundreds of pieces of woodwork to thousands of No4 and 5 rifles and if you seriously think that we Armourers would waste more than about 10 seconds in attempting to get more than a modicum of colour match, then you're wildly mistaken. We'd select a colour near - if a near colour was in the tray - , prepare it to fit properly, linseed it and fit it. Then out the rifle would go.

DON'T worry about it. I'll let you into another secret too. We have people, even some on the forum, who think that Armourers would rummage through hundreds of trays and boxes of spare parts, just to select a special year foresight blade or backsight leaf or a striker spring (I'm being silly now........) from a certain maker. Do not fall into that trap. No Armourer from any nation would entertain such a ridiculous notion, regardless what other 'armourers' might tell you.

Get your No4T, clean the barrel and bolt, give it a good pasting down the range to get it out of your system. Then clean it. Now spend a few hours reading ALL there is to read on this very forum, then go and speak to BDL and buy a couple of books on the subject. The next time you take it out onto the range you can zero it, enjoy it and let others admire it.

Good shooting and years of pleasure lay ahead of you. Peter Laidler

Does the fact that I'm very envious count as feedback?

Oh thanks Peter and to everyone else that chimmed in. I was getting worried that I might have gotten burned on this deal. After I bought the gun a gentleman told me he heard some people talking that were also bidding on the rifle that the receiver was a replacement. Apparently they didnt know anything about BSA not having the model number stamped on the left side of the receiver (Which I didnt know either). The bolt matches as well so I wasn't sure what the hell they were talking about. Also guys was I wrong on the scope mount being postwar? Is it correct? I read somewhere that the numbers should be stamped more towards the center of the mount. ? Also was BSA a common builder of these sniper rifles? Thanks for all the help guys can't wait to get the books so I don't have to ask all these questions!

Oops and double oops. I have just looked at my BSA and it DOES have No.4 MkI over the serial number on the receiver. It so incredibly light I must have missed it. If I was you I'd take another look.

Come a bit closer 31 and I'll let you into another secret that is wildly misunderstood. As Armourers, we'd see loads of No4T's that didn't have the rifle number on the bracket. It didn't need it because everything was cross referenced on the scope tin, the rifle and sometimes on the rifle chest - and certainly on the Technical Quartermasters paperwork. The bit that wasn't cross referenced was the scout regiment telescope number but that didn't really matter (well, it did if you happened to loose it!). The ONLY time that there could ever be ANY confusion was at Field workshops, when there would/might be a reason to remove the telescope from the bracket. And then, if you weren't VERY careful, or had a few similarly stripped rifles on your bench or under your wing, then there was a slight chance of the brackets becoming mixed up. And this spelt danger (plus a lot of work).

So under these circumstances, Armourers would mark the bracket with the rifle number when he'd removed the telescope. It was suggested that it was stamped after you'd removed the telescope from the bracket so that you didn't shock or break anything. Fair enough, but it'd take some BIG shock to damage one of these telescopes. After all, after any repair, they're fired from the Enfield rest with the recoil force set to hard and that usually shakes them up! Some Armourers would number an unnumbered bracket as a matter of course, others like me didn't bother unless the telescope was being removed.

The long and short of this is that if your bracket is numbered, all well and good but if it isn't, to me it would indicate that the telescope hasn't been removed in the past. But this isn't always the case because yu dn't know who's had it in the past, after it left our service and capable little hands.

Don't forget now, get out onto the ranges and give it a good blasting.

Peter I took a closer look at my receiver and there is a S on one side and a T on another. I cant see the NO.4 mk1 on the receiver. Is it possible when this went in for rebuild the coating on the receiver covered it up? I think i might see something but its really really really faint and under the coating. Im not sure tho. If you look at it it looks totally bare. Im sure this isnt a century arms build but I dont understand this either.

It will be there - if it's been refinished/heavily finished etc then frequently it won't be visible (hunt through pics of bsa 4ts online - on many you won't see it). Either way I wouldn't worry about it.

Looks a nice genuine rifle. There are often very faint designation marks electric pencilled into the receiver side-wall, but they are often not noticeable or lost to view after one or two FTR's. The butt may well be a swap off another rifle, but the rest of the woodwork looks genuine to the rifle. Most 45 dated T's I've come across that are unadulterated have got JC marked woodwork on them. (Just as most 44's seem to have SL wood). If you want to know for sure if the butt is a replacement then just unscrew the stock bolt & read the rifle serial stamped into the very front 'lip' that fits into the butt socket (as advised above).....you'll soon see. All in all it looks nice though, & no, I'm sure it's not a latter day throw-together.

Enjoy, you have a piece of history............

ATB

Roger the front wood is JC stamped. The rear is stamped SL right behind the trigger guard. Guess it was swapped out. Bummer. Too bad I can't fix that. Ok started to pull it apart. Barrel is stamped with original serial number. Anybody have the opposite gun as me with a JC buttstock and SL front stock that wants to trade butts? LOL

Hey, 31, you've got a good original No4T rifle and already you're staring to sound like one of those searching for the correct year parts for this and spring for this that and the other. It doesn't happen like that once the rifles get into service, believe me, I've been there and done it once or twice.................................. In fact, and I know it's only me but there may be others, but I start to have the most serious doubts about the a) person and b)the rifle, when I'm told about genuine untouched, original, factory fresh, never left Ordnance etc etc rifles. It don't happen like that! We don't make this stuff to keep in Ordnance stockpiles and when we do dispose of stuff we usually dispose of the older stuff and keep the best stuff back. Just go and buy an ex Army lorry or LandRover at the Government auctions. Matching tyres and alternators.............................

Peter your right. I'm just going to enjoy this piece. I actually dont mind the rear buttstock being a swapped out. Whats bugs me is the gloss finish on the rear vs. the satin finish of the front. Kinda makes it look weird. Guess the artist in me gets the better of me sometimes.:lol::lol:

A little acetone on a rag will dull the gloss finish, a lot will remove it. It's not original finish anyway. Ray

Guys one last question. What is this thing worth? I don't have any plans on selling it but if I ever do get in a bind what would it fetch? Plus I wanted to see if I paid too much lol!!!

AAArrrrrrrrrggggggggggggg. My pet peeve now! Nobody in the world knows what it's worth because nobody knows where you live. If only everyones side panel had a Country of origin. But it's worth a whole lot of money!

whoooops Ill get that filled out Peter. I live in Ohio USA

Whooooooops, As someone's just reminded me, mines not there either!

But the answer to its value is that in its pretty well 'as-it-left-the-Armourers shop, service-condition', it's now worth a whole lot MORE money

Badger, could I ask if you'll endorse my side panel with the words, Oxfordshire, OX13, England

I live in the Midwest not too far from you so I'll try to give a shot at the approx values I see at the Midwest shows I go to or on online auctions. I always take notice of what these sell for as I have three of them.
One I recently purchased with a matching scope, Two scope cans, one of them canvas, and a matching chest. Not as good a condition as yours, asking price was $4300 but purchase price was $3850.
Another I have with "non" matching scope, but matching can and chest pretty much comparable to yours so probably about the same value. I've seen similar ones sell anywhere from $2800 to $3500. Some I see offered for sale for more but not too many sell at those higher prices, especially in this economy.
Hope that gives you a general idea, as these are the prices I've seen recently, Ray

Well I paid 3k at the auction. Probably could have gotten it for 2k if one guy didn't want it as bad as me. He just wouldn't give up. The only reason I kept going was because it was a 1945 and had the Mk3 scope. Guess I could've done worse. Couple guys that were so called military collectors said it was only worth $1800 because they thought it had a replacement receiver thats why they didn't bid. Apparently they didnt look close enough.

I think you did just fine as you paid the lower end of it's value, Ray

I have a similar rifle, here's some photos that may be of interest:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...320Small-1.jpg

There, depending on the sheen of oil, and the light, and the angle, you CAN see the #4 Mk 1 marking on the rifle....

Yours is probably similar.

NS

It looks like your scope and mine spent some time together. The labeling, dates and initials look to be identical.
Mine:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...26Medium-1.jpg

Yours:
https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....0&d=1286582083

Yep mines just like that maybe even a bit lighter. Thanks for the pic Navyshooter. Id love to see some more of your rifle.

---------- Post added at 08:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 PM ----------

No4mk1T That is so cool. Your definitely right the numbers are close and the handwriting is the same.

http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/coffee/pics/4T/

Feel free to have a peek!

NS

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...220Small-1.jpg

This is about my favorite pic.

The scope bag does not match the rifle, and the box has been taken apart and re-painted, but I'm quite happy with what I have.

NS

Your rifle has all the right markings. I noticed your ranging drum is set at 2(200 yards) and the deflection(windage) drum appears to be at 0. I hope it shoots to point of aim for you. If not, the Laidler book will teach that the MKIII scope has internal adjustments that allows the scope to be re-zeroed. You have acquired a fine example of a great sniper rifle.Congratulations.

Well I'm parting ways with my Sniper if anyones interested its for sale.

Looking at you Local time I assume you are not in the UK?

Im located in Ohio, USA

Great looking T and with the transit case, scope caps and scope can. Transit cases are nearly impossible to find on their own. Congratulations, you have hit a grand slam.