WW2 97 Trench gun question

Hello,
Is it possible for a 97 Winchester trench gun sn 951968 to be WB cartouched, and have the six row heat shield? The bottom of the barrel is 42 dated and the muzzle shows no signs of a sight bead in the barrel. The shotgun looks all original to me. The receiver is US and bomb proofed on the left side where it should be. The bayonet lug is marked PAT JAN 15 & MAR 19 1918. I have read that most WW2 bayonet lugs are unmarked. I've been collecting awhile and the gun looks righteous to me. I can post pictures later if you need them. Thanks in advance,
Jared V.

Possible? Yes. However, unlikely. That's a pretty high serial number to have a WB marked stock and a six row cooling hole heat shield. Another issue is the marked (Pat Jan 15 & Mar 19 1918) bayonet adaptor. The WW2 adaptors for the Model 97 trench gun were not marked.

I will post some detailed pictures tomarrow when I have good light. I have examined this one pretty closely and it looks righteous to me. Let me know your opinions please.
Jared V

Here are some pictures. I don't believe there is any refinish or touch up. All wear patterns and colors are consistant. the sight bead on the lug is silver rather than brass and the lug itself measures 3.81"...
Jared V

More...

Wood to metal fit is perfect as is the fit of the lug and heat shield. I have been collecting model 12's and 1897's long enough to know original finish. This is my first trench gun however. There is also very old grease and junk beneath the heat shield that has been there for what looks like since it was born. If any one would like to see a specific picture, please ask. Your thoughts are appreciated.
Jared V.

I've also notied that the font of the E prefix is different on some 97 trench guns I've looked at. Was wondering what this meant?

Don't have a problem with the E prefix to the serial number. Some look like that.

What I find interesting is that some of the markings, particularly on the barrel, look like they have been buffed. They are not very sharp. There should be burnishing around the ordnance bomb and Winchester proof mark on the barrel. I'm not seeing that in your photos. Also, there appears to be a punch mark on the barrel next to the Winchester proof mark. Is there also a punch mark on the top of the receiver? These punch marks are thought to be rebuild marks. And there are even some collectors who believe that Winchester actually refinished some of these guns either near the end of or just after WW2, and that Winchester applied these punch marks on those refinished guns.


You said there is no evidence of a filed down sight bead on the barrel, right? Because some of the late made M97 trench guns have barrels with the filed down bead sight.

Post more photos, if you can.

Tom,
There is no filled or filed front sight hole at the muzzle end of the barrel. I own many old Winchesters and have made a small study of the Winchester proofing all the way back from when it first appeared shortly after the turn of the 1900's. I know what you are saying about burnishing or "halos" around the proofing and often around the serial numbers. My experience has been that when stamped after bluing, the metal becomes slightly high and is the first to wear on this high spot. Similar to what you see on the sides of the receivers on early 1894's where there were very slight forging lines running parrellel with the action that look like scratches when worn some. This particular gun shows only slight high edge wear and not much on the carry point. I truly doubt this one was refinished. Interesting that the punch marks could mean a factory refinish and yes there is one on the receiver and one on the barrel. All corners and contours look like they should with no evidence of polishing. The barrel logo is somewhat lite but sharp. The entire gun's metal shows brown oxidation under bright artificial light. Agian, I suspect no refinishing of either metal or wood. I will post some additional pictures.

Some more pictures.

These last three are pictures of proofing, and serials of my 50's vintage Model 12 riot gun that is nearly new condition. Notice the lack of burnishing or halos around the proofs and numbers...

I seem to have some good picture conditions right now so here are few more pictures of the trench gun showing the perfect wood to metal fit on the bottom tang, the old grease under the heat shield, butt plate, etc. Thoughts please...
Jared V

Jared,

I have S/N 93034X in similar condition.
Mine has a "Pat.Appl For " bayonet adapter. The stock however was unmarked.
This may open up a can of worms but I do subscribe to the Winchester rework theory. I own a Model 12 riot that is U.S. marked with similar Punch Marks.

The blue is consistant to that of other Winchesters I own. Hopefully records will turn up someday of any Winchester Rework. Who knows maybe with a list os Serial Numbers !

Thanks for the reply John. Poyer's book does state that MOST (meaning not all??) WW2 lugs were unmarked. I wouldn't mind seeing some pictures of your gun. Does your trench gun have the punch marks as pictured above?
Jared V.

Jared,

Yes it does have the "Punch Marks" like yours.

If I may suggest you should invest in Bruce Canfield's book on Combat Shotguns. Well worth the money.
I even found reference to the Winchester Rework on pg. 119 right had side of the page.
Contract #W-19-059 for repairs of model 97 and model 12 shotguns. Total combined number of guns 30,000. I feel confident that the employees did not try to match up the WWI bayonet adapters to WWI guns etc. So it is very possible.

I am sure that if the Winchester factory had a supply of heat shields in stock and some of them were marked ones like early ones, they would not have said, "Dang it, look marked heat shields, throw those in the scrap pile and lets make unmarked ones to use.!" I collect old phones and have more than enough to tell that they mixed parts when they changed/built different versions. They used up the parts on hand, so you might see one phone with a certain ringer and a different hook that was built while in transition to newer similar version. Some phones still have the old unused holes that were predrilled in the wood for earlier parts, but made with the newer parts that used different mtg methods. I know of collectors that have changed out phone parts, only to find later that they made a mistake....same with guns too.

Thanks for the input Rob. Does anyone know if the Cody Museum has any records on WW2 era Winchester produced arms?

AFAIK, there are no Cody records for the WW2 shotguns. But, I have a source that can probably tell us when the shotgun was serialized, perhaps even the exact day. If you are interested I can try and get that info for you.

Tom,
I am interested. The serial is in the pictures above. Thanks,
Jared V

I am not so sure of the stamping of the serial number on the receiver extension, doesn't look quite right...