-.060 Blade, foresight on a Lee Enfield No 4 MK 2 rifle !

This is my first posting and here is the picture :

Rifle : Lee Enfield No 4 MK 2 (F)
11/53 (PF 309***

Blade, foresight, Mk 1 (solid base), -.060 (yes, -.060).
Block, band foresight (split), marked 1 H on the rear sloping surface (post 1949 - pre 1954).

If I understand well, that block, band foresight is a .490" tall, that is .030" taller than the original Mk 1 block, band foresight, at .460" and the total height of the block and the blade is exactly the same (.490"-.060"=.430") as the height of the original Mk 1 block and a -.030" blade (.460"-.030"=.430"), right ?

And here is the rub : I will try to "regulate" the rifle (174 gr. bullet at 2,400 f/s or thereabouts) and then, I can see three possible scenarios.
1) I decide to get lucky : the sights are dead on. All is well.
2) I'm not so lucky and the rifle shoots high; I can change the blade, foresight although I am not aware that there is a -.045 blade, foresight for the Lee Enfield No 4 rifle. There would be a gap between the -.060 blade and the -.030 blade.
3) I'm really unlucky and the rifle shoots low. Now, dead end. I have to change the block, band foresight and get an original Mk 1 block (.460" tall). So, back to square A, so to speak - and the -.045 blade, foresight is still missing from the equation.

Questions :

1) Am I right ?
2) Is there somebody out there who has seen a -.060 blade, foresight Mk 1 on a Lee Enfield No 4 MK 2 rifle before ?

Voilà !

Opinions and even facts are very much welcome.

Administrator or moderator,

The way I see it now, I am not sure that I have sent my posting on the right forum.

Please, feel free to move it as you see fit.

Thanks,

Snowy Owl

Snowy owl, so as to not complicate things, I suggest that you go onto the Lee Enfield Forum and read up an article about foresight blocks and blades. It'll save a whole lot of re-writing..........

I don't know if it's a play on words, but you'd be better off ZEROING your rifle as opposed to regulating it. These foresight blocks and blades were made and designed for UK and Commonwealth spec .303" Mk7 ammunition. Not anything else that purports to be the same

Dear Mr Laidler,

You are absolutely right : my choice of words was not appropriate. I should have said (written) "zeroing" instead of "regulating". I was not trying to play on words. My mistake.

The fact is that I had already read and reread what I think is the very best article on the subject of foresight blocks and blades, that is your article : "FORESIGHTS and the No 4 rifle" (07-17-2009).
In that article, you mentioned the fact that there are eight sizes of blades, from -.030 to +.075 but still, I have a Lee Enfield No 4 MK 2 rifle with a -.060 blade, foresight, Mk 1. I was just trying to know more about it because I have not found any other article as good as yours.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Best regards,

Snowy Owl

I got that Snowy but I've had a search through all of the parts lists and EMER's and the LOWEST blade listed, and to my limited knowledge, is -.030". If you have a -.060" it means that there's a -.045" blade out there too!. I think that if you look at the size of your blade through a magnifier, you'll find that it's a .060" and the + looks like a -. Just my hunch............ Not all plus sizes were marked + either.

Snowy, if your rifle shoots low with military ammo, then you need not change your foresight block. You have the option of

1. raising your rear sight a few clicks, and make a note of the adjustment at each distance.
2. File down your sight blade a little more
3. Try other ammo. This can make a big difference to POI.

If it shoots high, get a selection of sight blades from Springfield Sporters and file down to suit.

RobD,

Now, this is very sensible advice. I must say that I was quite reluctant to file the sight blade because my rifle is - well - nice. Sometimes, I am prone to split hairs.

OTOH, Springfield Sporters does not accept International Orders. I live in Canada but I could get sight blades in Canada or from the U.K.

Many thanks,

Snowy Owl

I've got a full selection of them here, which I keep for cases like this.

[duplicate post]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RobD

If it shoots high, get a selection of sight blades from Springfield Sporters and file down to suit.

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Forgive me for contradicting but that is really not the way to do it. One should replace the foresight with a lower one, rather than hack away at the blade.

The reason is that the foresight blade height remains the same (0.140") no matter the height of the foresight above the bore line (1 inch with a zero sight.). Changes of height above the bore line is achieved by the foresights having differing bed heights rather than blade heights.

Source: an ex-REME Bloke who hangs around here.

When I return, I'll post the thickness of the beds on a sample of foresights.

You're right of course Beery. If you can't zero a No4 rifle using all of the blades and foresight block combinations, using UK spec Mk7 ammo, then there is something else wrong. If we couldn't do it at Field workshops, then we'd sentence the rifle Z (that's Base repair don't forget) with a copy of the zeroing target attached to it. This would indicate to the bods at Base workshops that it was a zeroing problem and required a barrel change. There should never be a time when you need to file down or braze UP foresight blades in order to zero a No4 - unless you're using some non UK milspec ammo

I have to say I can't see any reason to hack anything - Ebay and similar are chock full of complete sets of No4 and SMLE foresights....even up to +.090 as well as individual sight blades.

I keep a full set of each and they cost around £25.00 a set.

Even before reloading rears it's head, there are enough suppliers of 174Gr .303 to relatively easily find something that works with a standard foresight and sight ramp without resorting to reloading or the hacksaw/file.

I'd agree that you may find that your "-060" is actually a ".060" as I have a couple of blades where the "." could easily be mistaken for a "-" until you compare the actual height to others.

Maybe I should have added that picture with my first posting.

Here is what the camera sees : is it really a +.060 blade ? I have my doubts about it, with or without magnifier.

Attachment 16647

...here's another one. It measures 0.252" from the bottom of the dovetail to the top of the blade, 0.030" shorter than another one marked -030. If not for a Lee-Enfield, could this be a submachinegun thing? Would a Sten or whatever use a sight with a non-split base?

Steve H. in N.Y.,

Answer to your question : I do not know.
As you can see, I am the newbie here - and I have that -.060 foresight blade on my rifle.

If you use the "Expand to actual size" function on my picture, it is quite ... obvious that the numbers are -.060, no more no less. Your blade has an "arrow" on the right (top on the picture) side and mine doesn't have it.

I will leave it to the experts. I can't make head or tail of it.

It certainly says -060.

I've been frustrated searching through trays of blades to find nominally correct ones which someone has filed down.

I have a note here from some time ago, of the measurements I made of the stocks I had at that time:
-.045= .269 dev 256
-.030= .292 dev 289 275
-.015= .303 dev 294
0= .316 dev 322
+.015= .336 dev
+.030= .342 dev 350
+.045= .364 dev 368
+.060= .380 dev 382
+.075= .396 dev
+.090= .408 dev 410
plus a .015 that measures .435!

As with bolt heads, the number indication on No4 sight blades often seems to be rather random! These days I just choose & change sight blades by comparing their actual heights....

The -.060" and then presumably a -.045" foresight blades probable riginate from the same stable as the No4 size bolt heads! But wherever they come from, they ain't from the UK Military orbitory planet Mr Spock!

Seems that there alot of discussion on foresight blade heights going on. I am newbie, but have found sight height correction calculator on the Brownell's website. It comes up with the same 1.87"@ 100yds per 0.15" change in blade height that I have seen quoted on this forum.
http://brownwells.http.internapcdn.n...rection_F2.swf

Hope this helps

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I got that Snowy but I've had a search through all of the parts lists and EMER's and the LOWEST blade listed, and to my limited knowledge, is -.030". If you have a -.060" it means that there's a -.045" blade out there too!. I think that if you look at the size of your blade through a magnifier, you'll find that it's a .060" and the + looks like a -. Just my hunch............ Not all plus sizes were marked + either.

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I have just checked out in the workshop I have some that are -0.45 & -0.60 they are still in the white and made by parker hale

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Simon P

I have just checked out in the workshop I have some that are -0.45 & -0.60 they are still in the white and made by parker hale

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So, these -0.45" & -0.60" blades have presumably been made in England by Parker Hale. Does that mean that they are Military - or commercial ? Or maybe there is no way to know for sure ?

They did make them for commercial sale, in a variety of widths. It's common to find these mixed in with military ones.
When P-H closed down a large quantity of finished and semi-finished sight parts were thrown on the market. I bought some.

Commercial sight blades would not have a Broad Arrow on them, ergo some of these are military - but maybe not for the No4 rifle. I was told by a.n.other armourer (of WW2 vintage) that these for the MkV Sten. Maybe someone has a Sten EMER and can check?

Parker Hale & AJ Parker seems to have made blades from -0.60 to +0.90, as well as all sorts of blade profiles (wedge, pyramid, bead on top, etc). Their blades tend to be well finished, and blued, unlike the military items.

The answer to this is simple. I know a bit about Sten Guns. In fact, we still use a few occasionally There was never a -.045 or -.060 made, adopted nor authorised for the Sten Gun. Maybe PH or the others made these sizes but not for the UK Military. If they WERE, then someone quote me the B1/CR part number....................

If a No4 rifle - or a Sten gun now that I think about it - can only be zeroed by the use of such a foresight blade then it's outside the EMER spec and rectified. If it can't be rectified, then it's what we call ZF-BER

List of foresight blades taken from the 1959 (with 1967 amendments) list of spares for the Rifle No.4.

They range from -0.03 up to 0.09

Simon P,

Very informative and helpful list. The key to the enigma.

Many thanks,

Snowy Owl

This complete and illustrated parts list is available from BDL in SC. A good read too and a must for any No4 owner as it covers the Mk1, Mk1/1, /2 /3 and 2.

Not British & Not for the No4 rifle

The Australian parts list for the SMLE has a foresight -0.06 blade listed. The VOCAB Number is BB0654.

That's interesting in its own way SP because as a general rule, it was HIGHER sizes of foresight blades that you needed to zero errant No4's (I know we're talking No1's here.....). To overcome the problem, higher foresight block bands were introduced (see article wot I writ earlier.....).

Any of you wild antipodeans have any comments on the need for lower sizes of foresight blades? Anyone got a full Australian EMER/EMEI with all the amendments?

Interesting.............

I have a 1942 (FTR 1954) faz no4 mk1/2 which I shoot regularly here in Western Australia in service rifle core matches, I use handloads, 174 fmj boattails, fireformed cases with 43.5 grains of AR2208 and a -060 foresight blade. with this combination and a six o'clock hold the rearsight corresponds perfectly ie 330 yds is dead on at 300m, 220yds is dead on at 200m and at the fully lowered position the micrometer is point of aim at 100m. IMHO Snowy owl, give the -060 a try first, you may just find the previous owner had it set up just right!

Hello Tarplett,

Your message is most welcome !

I too handload because there is no more .303 British Mk VII ammunition available in Canada - like ten years now.

May I ask you a few questions :

1) Your rifle : could you elaborate on its Block, band foresight ? There are six of them : original Mk 1 or Mk 2 (no lettering on the rear sloping surface of the block), Mk 1H or Mk 2H (1H or 2H lettering on the rear sloping surface) and Mk 1 or Mk 2 second modified (1 or 2 lettering). Mine is a Mk 1H.
To know more about No 4 Block, band foresights and their respective heights, you will have to read the article by Mr Peter Laidler : "Foresights and the No 4 rifle" (07-17-2009). Google Custom Search in the upper right corner of your screen.

2) Your powder : AR 2208 is sold as Varget by Hodgdon in North America. May I ask you if you know the velocity of your load (chronograph) ? It should be around 2,400 f/s, maybe more. Your charge is a bit over the maximum charge recommended by Hodgdon (42.0 grains) with a Sierra 174 gr. HPBT bullet - the same bullet that I will use first.

3) Your bullet : what make or brand ? Sierra, Hornady or else ?

Naturally, I intend to do exactly as you suggested and shoot my rifle as is, with its -.060" foresight blade and I furiously hope that it will be dead on - like yours !

Many thanks,

Snowy Owl

Hey Snowy,
A. The foresight block band is a 1H with a -060 blade marked WA (1st variation according to stratton).
B. I use 42 grns of ADI AR2208 in fire formed and necked cases giving a m/v of around 2440fps (close enough to a mkVII). Dont have access to a chrony.
C. I use a highland 174 gn fmj boat tail (not crimped).
I'm using this combination to slowly work my way to my master grading, my current average is 138 and i need 142 to get there.
The rifle and the load are accurate enough, its just the nut behind the butt i need to work on!!!