Why does no one want to work on my rifle?

I have exhausted my search for a local gunsmith who is willing to change the barrel on my Lee-EnfieldNo.4. That leaves ether shipping it out to have the work done, an option I'm not particularly fond of, or me doing it. Since this will defiantly not be my last Enfield and I didn’t spend an overly large amount for this rifle I would like to try it.
I find buying tools almost as enjoyable as buying firearms so I have no problem there. I would appreciate any hints or advice. Also are there any books and or web sites that anyone could recommend as references? I have worked on racecars for years and I think I might have the mechanical inclination to handle it and I think I have a gunsmith who would be willing to do any machine work that I need to time the barrel.
Thanks in advance for any help

Action wrenches, barrel vises, and any other necessary tools show up on EBay and the other auction sites regularly. As for 'smithing and/or advice, I can't think of anyone more qualified than Brian Dick of BDL Ltd.

http://www.bdlltd.com/

There's been MANY articles on this site and the old site too about changing barrels. I did some of them so take an hour or so and read up Rembrant. I seem to remember someone from Australia made his own breeching up tools recently too. Listen to the blokes who have done it before Rembrant, it'll save you a lot of grief.....and rifle bodies!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

There's been MANY articles on this site and the old site too about changing barrels. I did some of them so take an hour or so and read up Rembrant. I seem to remember someone from Australia made his own breeching up tools recently too. Listen to the blokes who have done it before Rembrant, it'll save you a lot of grief.....and rifle bodies!

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A couple of Peter Laidler's old posts :

Hello from wet, miserable, rainy Warminster, home of the Infantry, where Salisbury Plain has turned to mud. Ah, yes, breeching up.

I wonder how many of you read the thread on our sister Enfield collectors milsurp site regarding take-off barrels and the problems re-indexing them when used in another rifle afterwards. This is nothing new, not even with NEW barrels, especially ‘new’ old 40’s barrels that were still in the system until a few years ago. And dare I say it, but Savage spare barrels seemed to be the worst offenders.

At our big field and base workshops it wasn’t such a problem because we’d usually have a long racks of barrels, both new and almost new that we could use until we’d get one with the correct ‘hand-tight’ underturn that we could select for final fitting. Oh, yes……, before I forget, we always graded our barrels in quarters of life. If a barrel was in its first quarter of life then it’d be almost as new and so on to a last quarter of life where it was probably shot out. But shot out didn’t mean that it was duff or inaccurate either. Anyway, I digress………….. But don’t get the impression that it was just barrels where the breeching up threads were slightly out of index. It was the rifle bodies too. And if you got a rifle where the breeching up thread was ‘late’ (that is, commenced even a minute of angle late), then getting a barrel that would underturn was difficult. So I’ll take you through what could and would happen.

Sniper rifles were the worst because they were always at a premium and the Command AIA, (the Assistant Inspector of Armaments) would always specify new barrels for these but that was easy to say but sometimes difficult in practice. So where a new barrel couldn’t be found with the correct underturn, the breeching-up face of the body would be smoother-off with a smooth file, just a gnats knacker or as you wild antipodeans or colonial savages say, a RCH so that a datum surface was available. Then the best-fit barrel would be fitted until it read the correct underturn THEN a reading would be ascertained as to the thickness of material required to get the correct underturn. Lets say that in our case, it was .028”. That’s twenty eight thousandths of an inch.

Someone suggested that his gunsmith will insert a .028” steel shim and that’s the answer. Others have suggested that it’d be a good idea to gently swage the shoulder of the breeching-up face of the barrel, sufficient to take up the slack. DO NOT USE THESE METHODS. THEY ARE XXXX POOR ENGINEERING PRACTICE and verging on the best bubba practice you will ever have the privilege of seeing. Have you digested that?

This is what you do. Knowing that your barrel needs .028” underturn, get yourself a proper breeching up washer made. I’m not going to teach you or your machinist pal how to suck eggs but if you need .028”, then get the breeching washer made .128” THEN machine .100” off the breeching up face of the barrel (no, the breeching UP face, not the BREECH face silly…..). But I’ll let you into a secret. At our large Base workshop in Singapore, we were running major overhaul programmes of everything including L1A1 rifles. Then, someone noticed that the tough, hard, readily available and exact diameter required L1A1 breeching up washers were between about .055” and .070” thick. Now, we’d just take the barrel to the little Chinese fitter/turner (he had a big pile of breeching up washers in his tray anyway) and say .”028” please Lim” and he’d mount the barrel and machine away .032” from the breeching up face. You’d walk back to the Armourers shop, past Steve’s Magnolia ice-cream van where you’d spend the next half an hour discussing politics or the Viet-nam situation or the new flower arrangement in the church with the rest of the blokes……..Oh, I’ve gone off at a tangent again…… Anyway, armed with the new barrel with .032” machined off the breeching up face PLUS a new .060” L1A1 breeching up washer you’d know that .060” - .032” was .028” which is JUST the underturn we need to tighten the barrel to make it PERFECT on the flat-plate we used to ensure that it was perfectly tight, upright and square.

Is that simple enough? It might be a tad more thoughtful that a steel shim or a good battering around the barrel flange that won’t last twenty minutes but it’s how the pro’s do it.

There are a few afterthoughts too. I’m telling you this so that when YOU need to do the job, then YOU tell your gunsmith how its done properly. And go and buy a selection of L1A1 breeching up washers now, while they’re available. When a badly shot-out/rusty bore No4T Lyman TP rifle was recovered recently, it too overturned by as much as it should have underturned, even with a new barrel. Our main workshops were at their wits end as there were only a few barrels from which to select. So what method do you think THEY utilized? Yep, got it in one. And it shoots as sweetly and accurately as it ever did. And as for us young 20 year old lads discussing politics, Vietnam or Flower arranging in 60’s Singapore…………, then if they did, I wasn’t part of the discussion!

ARE YOU ON THE SQUARE? A guide to breeching up!

ON THE SQUARE
As a result of a request from forumers, I’m going to tell you how WE, the REME Armourers breeched up No4 and 5 rifles. And while we’re at it, this is the principle of how we did L1A1’s too.

I must stress that we were all taught the correct method of breeching up but to be honest, and I’m going to be simple now, you were relying on a parallel gauge, one end of which crossed the flat we call the KNOX FORM. And as you are well aware, while it is meant to be a datum surface and therefore accurate, in MOST cases so far as I was aware, it simply wasn’t! What I’m going to tell you ignores the relationship of the knox form with this that and the other and relies on good, sound, honest, common sense!

You have all (hopefully) read the previously published article about how we would select a barrel from a large rack of ‘em, that gave us about 18 degrees or so of underturn. If it was, say, 25 degrees, then you simply skim a gnats knacker or a RCH from the breeching up face. If it’s, say only 10 degrees, then you insert a breeching up washer to suit. Has all that stuff been read and digested?

Someone asked a couple of questions/comments about the breeching up washers after I said that we used the plentiful L1A1 washers. And simply put, the L1A1 washers are a good fit and do the job perfectly. As for the quality, well, simply put, they might not be HARD, as in mechanical engineering terms but they are TOUGH and that’s what counts in this application.

When you have breeched up your barrel so that it LOOKS pretty-well square, I want you to select a solid (as in not the fabricated type) foresight protector with straight and undamaged sides and secure it to the foresight block band When the screw it tightened up, this foresight protector should grip the block band each side. In other words, even when the screw is loosened a tad, you should not be able to rotate the protector….., not even a little bit. It must slide and sit on the foresight block band tightly.

Now you probably won’t have a hundred or so foresight protectors to try before you get one that’s perfect. You won’t need that many, and most probably, the first or second you try will do. If you can’t find one, then just make sure that before you tighten yours up, then it is sat EXACTLY equidistant/centrally astride the block band. Do you understand this. It is important.

As a matter of interest, we had an exact protector that was painted BFA yellow (that’s Blank Firing Adaptor paint colour …..) that stayed with the breeching up kit together with an extended screw with an allen-key end for ease of use but I digress…...

Now, you insert a 4” long or so .144” diameter or 9 SWG (Standard Wire Gauge) ground steel bar, through the backsight axis pin hole and rest this across two matched vee blocks that are sat on a surface plate at a height that allows the rifle to lay parallel to the surface plate or something else that is 36” or so long and absolutely FLAT. We had a sheet of plate glass that did the job as well as anything. Now, allow the foresight protectors to touch the glass. Now, gently rock the barrel and the body between the axis pin and the protectors. It SHOULD sit absolutely square, supported between the axis of the backsight axis pin and the square of the foresight protectors.

If it’s not EXACTLY square and rock free, then just tighten or undo the barrel a further gnats knacker until it is ‘no-rock’ perfect. And that is it! If we were 2nd Class Craftsmen, we’d ask a 1st class Armourer to sign off the work but to be honest, after a couple of times, it was like riding a bike

Now you have a backsight and a foresight that are both exactly upright and square to each other, regardless of what the parallel gauge or alignment lines say……….., and that’s really all that’s needed. Oh yes, and don’t talk to me about alignment bars/lines either. If you have ever breeched up Thompson guns or SA80 rifles, then you soon learn to ignore them and do it properly. If you have any fears that the extractor slot might not align with the extractor then forget it because there is ample width to cater for it.

The same idea applied to L1A1 rifles except this time, the vee block was positioned inside the body, resting on the machined inner surface. Same with No5 rifles too but this time, because we couldn’t be sure that the splayed foresight protector ‘ears’ were both splayed exactly, then a simple square was cramped to the parallel part of the upright that really needs no further explanation.

Now here’s something that you didn’t know or thought about. If you have a rifle that won’t zero until the foresight it well over to the left or right, and I’ve seen plenty of then too….., now is the time to consider whether the barrel is slightly over or under breeched. Just a slight amount will upset the balance of the foresight block…………..

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Originally Posted by Rumpelhardt

I have exhausted my search for a local gunsmith who is willing to change the barrel on my Lee-EnfieldNo.4. That leaves ether shipping it out to have the work done, an option I'm not particularly fond of, or me doing it. Since this will defiantly not be my last Enfield and I didn’t spend an overly large amount for this rifle I would like to try it.
I find buying tools almost as enjoyable as buying firearms so I have no problem there. I would appreciate any hints or advice. Also are there any books and or web sites that anyone could recommend as references? I have worked on racecars for years and I think I might have the mechanical inclination to handle it and I think I have a gunsmith who would be willing to do any machine work that I need to time the barrel.
Thanks in advance for any help

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You best option is to click on Peter's index link and find if what you need is there … ;)

Index of Peter Laidler's series of formal Knowledge Library articles and selected archived posts ... (click here)

Regards,
Doug

My two cents? Don't do it! Pain in the kiester at best. Ruined receiver body, broken tools and adused body and nerves at worst. I've done it, and not too long ago, but WAY less than Captain Laidler. And, no, I don't know anyone offhand who wants the job...

If you don't mind throwing the time, money, and possibility of stuffing the body then go for it. I bought the wrenches and vice and shims a while ago, but just sorted out No4's properly recently. Here's the thread where I got it down. No4 Mk1 T Rebuild
Absolute ridgity in the mounting of the vice I have found essential. Also full support to the receiver body, and a perfectly effective barrel vice with the right shims.
For the one in the thread I made the relief cut, but I pulled a barrel from a No4 mk2 last night with no problems at all, using a hammer on the receiver wrench to break it free. There were no marks left on the receiver, and no marring to the spiggot. All I can say is that it is all about having the right gear, the right advice, being properly set up and being willing to accept the consequence of a learning curve.
I badly damaged the first No4 body I pulled the barrel from and regret that very much. But I learned from it, set myself up better, modified the tools as necessary, and got some more advice from people who know, and now I have a setup that is totally adequate to the task. It took some time and effort to sort out, not too much money, but the setup and skills I've acquired will stay with me for as long as I want to use them.
Make up your own mind but I know what I'd do.

Everything has been comprehensively covered by Cap'n Laidler, Alan d' Enfield et al. Do not try to do it using a Stilson wrench and a cheap vise on a light bench.

In a related event, just last week I scored something marked "VICE NO.13": odd, since I thought there were only seven deadly sins and ten commandments.

Anyway, the parts I received have matching numbers and are in excellent condition, with only the usual loss of the dark bronze paint where it's been clamped up. Marked in large letters " R.S.M.L.E." and in smaller font, "CLAMS NO 8".

Cute feature is the separate (and matching numbered) insert piece that engages the driving flat on the Knox form.

However, there appears to be something(s) missing: On the larger of the two blocks is a slotted plate which appears to engage a "T" shaped form which, in turn, is part of a clamping device that presses the two parts that I have, together. My digital camera suffered a fatal gravity incident recently, so no pictures at the moment.

Any clues? The Labudda / Skennerton book, "Accurizing and Shooting Lee-Enfields" shows nothing like it.

BROWNELLS : SHORT MAGAZINE LEE ENFIELD RIFLE ACTION WRENCH & HEAD - World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools


Does this look like it would do the job?

A friend of mine has that one and it works great for him. I copied my adapter plate from this type

Don't know about the rest of the world but as I understand it there are no new No 1 or No 4 barrels to be had in the states and the ones that are take offs are graduates of the Univ of Cordite which really does a number on them. I have a borescope and have looked at such and they will make you sick to see what you are trying to get to shoot.

I have given up on trying to find good barrels and last two 303s I barreled up I turned down commercial blanks and fitted them and did not have to worry about timing marks, bolt heads etc.
Another consideration is how is your ammo supply of 303 milspec ammo? Again in the states such ammo I believe is not to be available in quantity as was the Greek stuff of ten years ago and I suspect those days are gone forever of cheap 303 surplus. In the same catagory is 30.06 LC Match and 7.62 LC Match ammo.

When the last 30.06 Match was released from DCM (now CMP) back in early 80s I knew it was the last ship in and they were down to War Reserves which will not be touched except as a "they are coming down your drive way" total war situation. If the decision is ever made to sell or destroy the 1903A4s still in depot storage we may see it then but don't hold your breath.

A lathe also comes in handy for making additional barrel adaptors for different size barrels. For instance Mod 70 Win is a certain size and Rem 700s are another size and then there are others to contend with like 98 Mauser contours etc.

Another thing is most old gunsmiths I know are shall we say kindly not the easiest people to get along with and I attribute this to seeing hundreds of guys come in over the years and tell them how to do their jobs when they don't have a clue of what is involved. In short they can tell you all about doing it but they can't do it themselves. With a little internet reading it is easy to sound knowledgeable on various subjects but if you can't do it you will not win friends and influence those who can. Same thing happens to mechanics. Thusly for sanity sake you need to learn and be able to do what needs to be done to keep your toys going.

I have about 300 empty cases and I am doing all I can to make sure they last me the rest of my days and if I work it right I figure they will last me ten to fifteen years as I generally try and put in custom chambers of minimum dimensions so the brass doesn't get overworked. It costs more to get custom reamers but the cost of a custom reamer I figure is offset by the money you save in buying brass which as we all know is out the roof these days and will be for many years to come.

Obviously this destroys collectors value of a No 4 but you need to make the decision of whether you want a wall hanger that is correct and won't shoot or one you can shoot with good accuracy. Personally I go for shooters and try to enhance their accuracy to give small groups at much longer ranges.

You can sign up for classes in your local technical education school that will teach you how to operate a lathe and a mill in a few months of evening classes. Such training will come in handy very often the rest of your life and allow you to fabricate things for other toys as well.
For instance I got a used backhoe/frontend loader two years ago. It had a broken clutch lever.
I pulled it off and priced a new one which was like $157.00 and was of aluminum as was the original and prone to breakage so I made a new one from odd pieces of scrap steel and it is still doing fine.

Fitting your own barrels is possible. The NRA Gunsmithing guide is one source with lots of pictures. You need to get the best lathe you can which will give you 12 swing and 36" between centers with a hole through headstock of about 1 1/4" or larger. I have seen used Clausings on ebay for around 2000.00. I have a Clausing 5914 which is a good lathe for barrel work and see these on ebay fairly often. You may have to get a phase converter to run it on 240 but not a problem, works fine.

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Originally Posted by Rumpelhardt

BROWNELLS : SHORT MAGAZINE LEE ENFIELD RIFLE ACTION WRENCH & HEAD - World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools


Does this look like it would do the job?

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It works unless the barrel is really stuck. However, "stuck" is pretty common w/ No.4 actions. Then it won't support the action well enough! Don't ask me how I know...

SMLEs don't put up near the fight! I don't know why, but I've only had a couple of SMLEs that were beyond "reasonable use of force".

Take the relief cut and they're a walk in the park.

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Originally Posted by tbonesmith

Take the relief cut and they're a walk in the park.

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That's fine IF it's not BARREL that you are trying to rescue! Yah, I've "relief cut" more than one receiver, but it makes me sad to do it!

Yeah. gotcha.
As I mentioned though, my mate has that Brownells wrench and has pulled a number of barrels with no major problems, or relief cuts. And mine does the job too, and that's similar. I guess you have to get to know the equipment and work out how to optimize it for your particular situation