Alot of m1917's that ended up in asia were rebarreled in 8mm mauser?
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Alot of m1917's that ended up in asia were rebarreled in 8mm mauser?
Sorry, I've never heard of an 8mm M1917. Where? Who for?
First I've heard of it, but here's a quick Google search ... :)
About 3/4 way through article, this was stated ...
The Rifles of China 1880-1950
Regards,Quote:
The Nationalists were forced to withdraw the .30 small arms from issue and store them. Some M1917 rifles were converted to 7.92mm at the arsenal in Mukden by pulling the barrels, boring out and re-rifling, shortening the chamber end, reaming and refitting to the receiver. Most of the .30 weapons were captured in storage when Manchuria later fell to the Reds. You can spot the conversion when bayonet is mounted as the muzzle ring is seen to be forward of the front sight at the very end of the barrel.
Doug
iv heard of the rebored 1917,s though iv yet to see one..iv held 2 1917,s the were captured in Nam. by US troops, both were stil in 30-06, and in very rough shape, one was fitted to a US M14 stock, the other was quite original missing the front handguard , both Winchesters, and Both had no mix of other parts..all W marked.
we loaned China a bunch of 17,s that were as some time taken by the NVC tropps.
Chuck, you talked about that M1917 with a M14 stock before. That must have been quite a piece of work! I wonder if these guns got converted back by some enterprising individual or just stripped for parts? Or are they sitting in warehouse somewhere?
The 8mm P-17's were done in mass in Belgium in the late 20's and 30's by a firm called Edgar Gimard. A large number were sold into the USA and any banana Republic who wanted a cheap rifle firing the huge glut of surplus ammo available after the "War to end all Wars". There was also a P-17 trails rifle done in .303/7.92 rimless but I only know of one or two others in private hands outside of the Pattern Room. If anyone has a spare 303/8mm rimless round I'd sure appreciate one for display (will buy or trade) Pictures of the trials P-17 rifle will be posted shortly, once I get the light box up and working again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheaty
To add a bit to Warren's comments, After WWI the British Government contracted with BSA to sell off surplus arms from the war. BSA set up Soley Arms as a front to sell arms world wide. Soley set up connections with Gimard to remanufacture Pattern 1914's as required by customers. Most are not marked other than proofs, caliber or 8mm Blindee. Warren has one that has a Soley crest. There is a late 1960's picture that shows an 8mm Pattern 1914 with a cleaning rod, purported for China. Later I was an observer to a converstion where a collector said he added the cleaning rod and groove for the picture. Why? I have no idea but I have never seen another one with cleaning rod or groove.
I have a few of the 8mms and Warren, I think I have two of the 303/8mm ---I know I have the one featured in an article found in the second issue of the Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting and I think I bought another one before that. The darn things all look alike in the rack.
the 17 i saw with the M14 stock, had the capture papers taped to the stock, the man who has it, is the person who captured the rifle, said that was how he took it off the dead guy that no longer has a use for it.
suposedly you could install a m1917 bolt in a p14 and either rebore it for 8 mm or install a new 8 mm barrel.
Guns Of The World - Copyright 1972 by Petersen Publishing Co.
This publication is a cross between a thick magazine and a thin book.
Page 155 shows picture of an issue P14/M17 except for cleaning rod under visible front portion of barrel.....with the following text. Quote.
ALTERATION OF MODEL 1917 to 7.9x57mm seven shot Mauser-type magazine Converted in Belgium, probably for Chinese Government. Cleaning rod was added to the rework, and a thumb slot provided for loading. All British marks were removed. Barrel is marked "B Blindee 7.92mm", indicating it was proofed for jacketed bullets. Specimens sell for $75.00.
Unquote.
I'll take six at that price, thank-you.
Notice the firearm is called a MODEL 1917. This may, or may not, be an error. If the Belgian conversion was done pre-WW2, I can't see how any US surplus M17s would have been available.....the US government had their WW1 stock in their own stores.
If the conversion were done post-WW2, then surplused Brit M17s (post Dunkirk USA aid) might have been available. The only Chinese customer post WW2 would have been Chang's Nationalists until sometime in 1949. Notice in the quoted text there is no mention of a replaced bolt, while other aspects of the "rework" are mentioned.
I'm not gunsmith-savvy enough to know if the P14 action could economically be used in a conversion to 8MM Mauser - in addition to a new or a rebored barrel it seems to me there would be work needed on the extractor, feed rails, and mag platform. Maybe Belgian industrial gunsmithing labour was really cheap post WW1.
I suspect the Brits could have (did?) surplused off some P14s post WW1, as they were unneeded, they certainly needed the money, and they did send some away to (British controlled and run) India.
If I had to make a choice, I'd say the article in the Petersen publication is wrong, and that these firearms were alterations of the P14, not the MODEL 1917, and the work was done between the wars.
Just my $0.02 Canadian offered FWIW.
WeeIan's comments about the "Guns of the World" article rifle with cleaning rod is the only reference, I have found, that has an 8mm Pattern 1914 with a cleaning rod and grooved stock. This is the gun/artricle point of the conversation that I overheard years ago where one of the persons said he added the groove and rod. Why?, who knows. Another example of just cause it is written about or has a picture, it does not means its true.
I have definitely seen photos of the Pattern 14 rifle or the conversion of same to 8MM being used by soldiers of the Popular Front during the Spanish Civil War. I will opine the majority of these Belgian 8 mm conversions never went anywhere near China and were likely sold a lot closer to home, just a short boat ride to Espana where a socialist government was willing to pay in gold.