Questions About My No.4 Mk1 (T) Sniper Rifle

I purchased a No.4 Mk1 (T) sniper rifle a few years ago from a gun shop in Anchorage, Alaska. The gun shop was selling several guns that use to belong to an Englishman with the last name of Mitford (Rumor has it that he was some type of spy or intelligence officer during WWII, any info on him would be appreciated). Most of the guns for sale from the collection were made in England, Canada, Australia & Scotland. From the collection I bought this rifle, a double rifle and a very early Webley revolver. Anyway after reading Peter Laidler's "An Armourer's Perspective" I still have a few questions concerning my No.4 Mk1 (T) rifle and I am hoping someone can help answer some of them. My rifle came with a 15 MK1 chest, MK III scope and metal scope box. The left butt socket is marked 47C, 1944, H33363, TR. Left receiver is marked very lightly with what appears to be an electro-pencil and says N4 Mk1 (T1) with an arrow pointing up, but no Holland & Holland T present. Right receiver has the S stamp present, England, and a stamp I don't recognize. Butt stock has S51 and serial number of rifle, but no scope number. Back of receiver has crown over D6 over E. Below front scope pad stamped in the wood is an X. Front sight setup appears to be non MK1 and sight blade says FOR on top. I am wondering if this rifle could be one of the Holland & Holland rifles that was rejected by them because of the lack of T, different front sight and no scope number on butt stock (Note bore does have 5 grooves). Also 15 MK1 chest is stamped (T. Less Telescope) on the front. But tag on the end of the chest mentions the MKIII scope. I am unable to locate any FTR stamps or marks on the rifle. Scope seems to fit scope pads ok and it appears to zero properly. What do I have.

Rifle is in above average condition and it's a great find. The serial number "H33363" is correct for a 1944 BSA Shirley manufactured rifle. Perhaps the rifle was converted by Holland & Holland and sent to Stores as a "Less Telescope" rifle. The scope bracket is serialized to a different rifle "52225" and has another number that's been barred out. Can you tell us what that is? Also the white paper states the scope as "52225"...way out of any scope number although it does note "17611". Does this number appear on you scope body. Can you tell us the marking on the scope body? IMO., originally a "Less Telescope" rifle and scope was added later in its life. Very nice example....don't know about the story of the previous owner however if you have a name you shoulfd be able to research that as well. Ron

The front sight is a MK11...must have been changed out to get a sight pattern.....most likely the marking is "ROF".

Serial #17611 is stamped on the scope (AK&S 1945). 52225 stamped on scope bracket (former rifle number I assume) Xed out number above 52225 appears to be an A pre-fix number not clear. Bracket near front marked N92. Apparently armourers tag filled out incorrectly (Scope serial number and bracket rifle number reversed on scope tag). Thanks Ron for the info.

Mike

The BIC - 61 in red indicates that it was disposed of from the big Ordnance Depot at BICESTER, Oxfordshire in 1961. It just looks to me as though it has been made without a telescope (no tele number on the butt) and sent to Ordnance like that. Telescope quickly fitted at Ordnance later withoiut much thought about it, probably by some Ordnance blanket stacker chappie. Disposed of and ended up in Canada.

Just my thoughts if I saw one on my bench for inspection and repair one morning

Mr Laidler thanks for the info concerning my rifle. I especially enjoyed the comment about the blanket stacker. Best Regards.

The rifle has been 'officially' imported to the US. (The ENGLAND mark.) It has been through British Civilian gun trade. (GP = Gunmakers Proof - London. The lack of a Crowned V 'View' mark suggests post 1954.)

So the spy story looks a bit iffy. Unless of course he was retired spy.

The Mitfords were very much part of the pre-war British Establishment. I suggest quick search in Wikipedia on "Mitford Family".

I fail to see what he might of done in WWII has anything to do with proof marks on my rifle. He was an avid gun collector and I have no idea when & where he acquired this piece. His collection that was being sold by the gun shop in Anchorage consisted of 150 firearms and took 2 years to sell all of them. He had recently passed away and his wife was selling these guns. I understood that some time after WWII he moved from England to North America. Thats all I know. I appreciate the info about the Mitfords.

Blanket stackers very often had different priorities.

As a National serviceman, having completed trade training at Larkhill, I booked into Woolwich for the night on route to BAOR and was issued/checked/signed for bedding.

2 sheets turned out to be 1 torn neatly down the middle.

Cant remember the exact figures but twenty-six shillings a week didnt pay for the "lost/damaged/destroyed" sheet.

Those early weeks provided a sharp learning curve.

Interesting about the 2 sheets out of one.

Two things strike me strange, not a lot, but here goes:
Odd that a rifle that was w/o telescope until it was being sold off would have had the scope pad screws properly staked, including the "I've been Staked" mark.
Also odd is the "52225" number on the bracket. No prefix and first number "5"?
Little things, but interesting.

Would the scope pads have been added at Holland & Holland or at a later date? I don't know much about these. Is the 5 infront too high of a number or what.

If the first number on the bracket was 3, then it would have come from a BSA T. Waht is the 'Ive been staked mark' JM? And another thing shootingmaster, a wise old man called John Sookey told me once '.............. only buy the rifle and NEVER buy the story'

I have learned since the little book was published that although the spec sheet implied that the rifles for conversion to T spec should be 'as produced' (as the No4Trials I suppose), many were converted and passed with the solid block band foresight so don't fret unduly about that

Thanks for the tidbit about the foresight. That makes me feel a lot better about my rifle. After reading your book I was wondering what I had. Sometimes it seems that the more I learn the more confused I get. I like my rifle and have shot it on several occasions.
My grandfather used to tell me believe nothing what you hear and half of what you see.

Cutting to the quick Shooting master, your rifle is a bog standard, run of the mill, everyday No4T. It left H&H without a telescope. We know this because the butt isn't marked with the telescope number. The chest is really irrelevant because they weren't fitted into chests at H&H, that was done at Weedon where they all went.

At the end of the war, on the termination of contract, H&H were required to complete the contracts as best they could with the material in hand. In other words, they could not charge anything else to the Ministry of Supply who issued the contract on behalf of the War Office. So incomplete rifles, like yours and even half completed stock were returned, as-is! The rifle is put into a chest at Weedon and marked 'less telescope' because it hasn't got one. When Weedon closed in 1959 or so and the Small Arms were sent to Bicester, someone there fitted a telescope from a scrap rifle 52222 or whatever it was.

As I said, they are my thoughts is this rifle/chest was waiting next to my bench to be inspected and repaired. The first thing I'd note was the telescope number that was all akimbo and get that sorted out. Test it on the 28 foot collimation chart, bore sight and get the paperwork numbers corrected

Mr Laidler thanks for the info on Weedon & Bicester. I will try the collimation chart with bore sighting and see what I come up with.

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Originally Posted by peter laidler

if the first number on the bracket was 3, then it would have come from a bsa t. Waht is the 'ive been staked mark' jm?

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"x"

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Originally Posted by Shootingmaster

Also 15 MK1 chest is stamped (T. Less Telescope) on the front. But tag on the end of the chest mentions the MKIII scope.

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Check the MKL and read this article by Advisory Panel member Lance:

1942 No.4 Mk1*(T) Savage Sniper Rifle (less scope)

The Transit Chest for "T.Less Telescope" as used when building and for storage of these partially completed snipers.

Regards,
Doug

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Originally Posted by Shootingmaster

I fail to see what he might of done in WWII has anything to do with proof marks on my rifle. He was an avid gun collector and I have no idea when & where he acquired this piece.

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I was merely pointing out that he didn't acquire the rifle in service, which may have been the implication of story that you were told.

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Two things strike me strange, not a lot, but here goes:
Odd that a rifle that was w/o telescope until it was being sold off would have had the scope pad screws properly staked, including the "I've been Staked" mark.
Also odd is the "52225" number on the bracket. No prefix and first number "5"?
Little things, but interesting.

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One will never be able to prove it one way or the other, but I'd lay odds that the '5' at the start of the rifle serial number on the bracket is as a result of someone's misreading of the serial number to go on, & should be a '3', making the original rifle (also) a BSA 1944.

ATB

I was under the impression that after all sniper modifications were made at H&H including a "telescope" fitted and sighted in, the rifle then received the final stamp of Enfield inspector Harry Hardwick, (“D6E”) on the left flat of the receiver behind the bolt as the above rifle has. I guess apparently this was not the case and rifles received the final D6E proof w/o a scope having been installed.
Seems a bit unusual as the proper fitting of the bracket and the scope and sighting testing seems like a major part of the final acceptence/proofing for a sniper, Ray

Doug thanks for the article concerning the Savage Sniper Rifle. Very interesting read.

Mike

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Originally Posted by Shootingmaster

Doug thanks for the article concerning the Savage Sniper Rifle. Very interesting read.

Mike

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You're welcome Mike .... :thup:

Lots of excellent content in the MKL added over the last 4 years, some of it very rare ..... :cheers:

Regards,
Doug

jmoore would you explain what the X on the wood line below the front scope pad means. It sounds like you have seen this mark before.

Mike

I don't think that X mark means staked screws. If some modification is visible to an inspecting Armourer, then it's visible and he won't need telling. There is only an external mark if the modification is internal and would mean stripping the rifle to confirm that it's been done. Take the body locking catch on the SLR. If modified, the mark is stamped near the retaining pin.

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Originally Posted by rayg

I was under the impression that after all sniper modifications were made at H&H including a "telescope" fitted and sighted in, the rifle then received the final stamp of Enfield inspector Harry Hardwick, (“D6E”) on the left flat of the receiver behind the bolt as the above rifle has. I guess apparently this was not the case and rifles received the final D6E proof w/o a scope having been installed.
Seems a bit unusual as the proper fitting of the bracket and the scope and sighting testing seems like a major part of the final acceptence/proofing for a sniper, Ray

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Peter at what stage of inspection was the D6E stamp applied if it wasn't after the scope was applied? Ray

It was applied when the rifle had passed the 'out inspection' phase but like you, I can't imagine it being 'finished' without a telescope. But, that aside, it didn't have a telescope. However, it was still an eminenently serviceable rifle built to 'T' spec - as were the other less telescope rifles that are known of.

I know that the letter 'T' was marked by him too, but this was used 'as a mark, close to the designation that is indicative of its telescope status'. If this rifle didn't have the 'T', that would seem to indicate that it left without a telescope

I am inclined to agree with Roger Payne that the rifle number on the bracket has been mis read and then stamped accordingly and that the first number should be 3 instead of 5.

So, does that mean the "TR" stamp on the socket means "telescope ready" and the "T" mark on the left receiver flat stands for "telescoped"?

Nice real deal sniper. The MKIII scope turrets can be adjusted so point of aim equals point of impact( thus" zeroed") and then the turrets or drums,regardless of their readings, can be re- adjusted so they both read zero and the point of aim equals point of impact will be preserved. I think. This assumes a nonmatching scope has enough adjustment in the drums to collimate the bore with the longitudinal axis of the scope. Okay, Captain Laidler , I have read your comments about the importance of matched rifle and scope. I can understand this for a MKI and MKII scope. Does the MKIII offer the advantage I describe above or am I just wrong.

When I shoot my T, I appreciate it's mechanical refinement and precision. It just plain feels right. My custom shop Remington TWS 700 police will outshoot the Enfield but feels a bit rough in comparison. I did get behind the wheel of a AI once and that's a special trip.

Well, if related to Unity Mitford he might have wanted to 'get away somewhere!

TR indicates that the rifle had grouped to a tighter standard than that laid down for the run of work rifles and as it was more accurate, was marked as such and set to one side and earmarked as suitable to become a telescope rofle (the TR) Not all TR rifles were converted as plenty of TR's carried on as normal rifles.

The letter T was added (and I'm quoting the bible here.....) close to the designation (that's why some trials rifles have the T on the left side butt socket) to indicate its new designation (as in 'Rifle .303" No4T Mk1') as indicative of its new telescope (or telescopic, I forget which now....) rifle status.

As for the telescopes.......... It's too difficult and long winded to explain again. But it's all been written several times before. BUT, there are pro's and cons with each mark type. But, in short, regardless of scope initially ignore the drum and always get the best zero you can by using the lead screw.
When you're close, final zero on the drum, using the clicks.
When you're ON, note the position of the lead screw, hold it there and swing the drum to suit the range.

The lessons on zeroing are a practical and not a theory lesson. But you can understand now why the lead screw clamping nut should nip-up the lead screw, just over finger tight and not be tightened as if you're doing up Jumbo Jet wheel nuts