Want to Get Into a MilSurp...Need Help Deciding.

Hey all,
This is my first post here and it looks like I can learn a lot.

I have always been interested in Milsurp rifles, but have never owned one because I never had access to a range to shoot them. Well last night everything changed. I had my nephew at the range with my AK letting him have some fun and the guy next to me pulls out a K-31 and I thought it was awesome. We chatted a bit about it and on the way home I decided that now that I have a place to shoot one, I need to figure out what would be a good one to get and pick one up.

Here is what I am looking for. Something that would be fun to shoot out to 300 yards where I don't have to worry if every hole in the target is touching and groups size and that stuff that modern guys get hung up on. Also I would prefer being able to shoot lower cost ammo. That's about all I can think of.

Of course I would LOVE to have a Garand or an 03 Springfield, but those are out of my price range. Then I thought about getting an "enemy at the gates" rifle and thought it would be a lot of fun. Naturally I would have to use a mauser clone instead of an actual German mauser 98k sniper rifle. There's always the Mosins too, but those are not really on the top of my "desire" list if you know what I mean. Then last night someone told me about something else that I had forgotten about....the 1917 Enfield. I checked it out and it's a really nice looking rifle and I have read a lot of great things about them over the years. I could really see myself shooting one of these with my nephew.

I go to check GunBroker just to see what's out there and how much they are and boy did I get an eye opening. There were all kinds of Enfields in various states of completion, customization and so on. I have no idea on what serial number range to look for, how to make sure I am getting a shooter or end uo with a wall hanger and so on. If someone walked up to my door right now and had one in his hands and was asking $100 for it, I wouldn't know how to tell if it would be suitable for repeated range use or not.

Then I see these Enfields that have been "sporterized" years ago and wonder whether one of these would be best and then have it put back to near original condition.

Can you all help me here in knowing what to look for? I don't want to end up with someone else's headaches. I want something I can take out to the range with my nephew, shoot for a few hours, come home, clean it up and repeat in a couple of weeks. So if you don't mind, please help me figure out what Enfield rifles to look for or possibly buy and what a good deal would be on one.

Also if you have any other suggestions for a "fun" range rifle, I'd certainly like to hear them.

Thanks for your time.

Nalajr

What is wrong with Mosin Nagants??? Don't waste your time trying to restore a bubba custom milsurp. There are too many out there in military configuration. What you want to collect depends on how much money you have. The golden age of surplus imports is over with the exception of Mosin Nagant 91/30s which can be had for 100 bucks. Ammo is not as cheap as it once was either. The best place is to hit the gun shows, if there are any in your area. Also, pick up an issue of Shotgun News and see what is out there....chris3

Hey,

Nothing at all wrong with the Mosin rifles, I plan on owning one of those too at some point. They just aren't on the top of my list. The main thing against them is they just don't have that "wow" factor that the others I mentioned have. You know the reaction you have when you walk up to a table at a gun show and see a nice Garand or 02 Springfield. I guess the Mosin just isn't as "sexy" as most others. I'll still get one though.

Nalajr

I don't know you age or condition of your eyesight but as you grow older, eyesight gets worse. Rifles with rear aperture sights like the 1917, 1903A3 & Garand will let you shoot better, longer. Unless you are on a very restricted budget, don't let price deter you. If going on price alone, get a Mosin Nagant. Rifles regularly go for less than $100 & ammo is cheap as well (all the surplus ammo has corrosive primers so immediate cleaning is a must). If not on a restricted budget, start setting aside some cash & save up for what you want. The 1917 has excellent sights but they are not adjustable for windage. The 1903A3 & Garand adjust for both W&E. If you shop around, it's not impossible to find a A3 or a a Garand for $500. The CMP has excellent bargains & the cheapest surplus .30-06 ammo around (excellent quality & non-corrosive). The CMP has Garands now and sometime after the first of the year they will again sell 1917s and 1903s. CMP Sales

Study up on what you want. Be ready to act when you find it - opportunity is fleeting.

Nalapombu,
if you feel strongly that you want an old service rifle for target shooting, but are very unclear about which type to go for, then I recommend that before buying any rifle you purchase the book "Collecting Classic Bolt Action Militray Rifles" By Paul Scarlata. It covers all the types you are likely to come across, and a lot more.

Then:
Join a club where others are shooting old rifles. That way, you can get to try out various types to see if they suit you.

Sights: age and open sights do not go well together. For target shooting, it really is easier to point a Garand, Springfield 03-A3, M1917 or Lee Enfield No4 than any rifle with open sights. Best with open sights are the Swedish Mauser and the Swiss Schmidt-Rubin rifles.
And (surprise, surprise!) that is also roughly the price ranking, although condition variations cause a large overlap.

Ammo: assuming you are living on the West Side of the Great Pond, .30-06 is easier to come by than most others, apart from .308, but there are not so many examples of the types listed above on .308 versions.

Windage adjustment - I don't want to get to involved for a beginner, but if your main activities are going to be in the 100 yard region, with occasional 300 yard outings, then you can live very well without it.

Summarizing: get the book, join the club, try out various types - THEN you can make an informed choice!

Patrick

Nalapombu,

The worlds your oyster when it comes to milsurp rifles, you have stated a few good rifles already, I,m an Enfield man myself (SMLE,s ) but do have a soft spot for the M1903 I have two, a Rock Island arsnal and a springfield, if I was in the USA then I would have a lot more of these as the price is a lot cheaper there than the UK, plus if i was there I would have a Garand, and a MI carbine.......

Buying a sporterized example and returning to it original state I would give it a miss untill you know which way you want to go, this can in some cases lead to more expense, nothing worse than buying a stock and fitting it, to find the barrel was reduced by an inch or so.

My advice would be, stick to something that you can get cheap surplus ammo for, then go on from there.

Look at yourself, your own famly. Chances are that your family did not always live on this side of The Great Puddle, which means that you are "ethnic". Of course, we're ALL "ethnic" when you look at it like that, so that could be a Good Thing.

Did you have a GGF in the Austro-Hungarian military? Good field there, very interesting and the rifles aren't all that horridly expensive to get into. You'll be looking at Mannlicher straight-pulls and Werndls.

Any Italian in the background? Vetterlis, Vetterli-Vitalis, Mannlicher-Carcanos, Garands by Breda and Beretta.

Polish? Now we're cooking! What part of Poland? Could be Mausers, Mausers, Mannlichers, Moisins.

British? Gunmaking industry has been ENGLISH since 1746; the Sassenachs say we are not to have firearms! But that gives you the Tower, Enfield, BSA, London Small Arms, Standard, National and so forth, not to mention the Enfield revolvers made by Albion Motors in Glasgie.

Pick something and get a good barrel. Load your own ammunition; it cuts the price by a half, even on the common calibres. For the really strange stuff it's even better. I can pay $4 a shot for .43 Mauser or I can reload my old brass for a little over a dime. Ammo is $3 a shot for my Carcanos, but I can handload the stuff for about 65 cents. And that's match-grade ammo, too: none of this foolin' around with the leftovers from Stalingrad.

For 300-yard shooting, almost ANY of the military rifles can be made to perform adequately, just so long as you aren't trying to put them all on the same dime. Peacetime standard for most military rifles was about 2 MOA with a brand-new rifle. In wartime, this standard generally was relaxed a bit. That is STILL hits, one after the other, on a gallon plastic milk bottle (filled with water, of course) at 300. At 100, you will put them all on the same postcard.

So pick one out that INTERESTS you. Then get back to us here and somebody is sure to know how to get the best out of it. And they will be happy to tell you just exactly how to do this.

Have fun! That's what it's all about!
.

How about the sks rifle.It's a nice semi-auto carbine.

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Originally Posted by Nalapombu

Hey,

Nothing at all wrong with the Mosin rifles, I plan on owning one of those too at some point. They just aren't on the top of my list. The main thing against them is they just don't have that "wow" factor that the others I mentioned have. You know the reaction you have when you walk up to a table at a gun show and see a nice Garand or 02 Springfield. I guess the Mosin just isn't as "sexy" as most others. I'll still get one though.

Nalajr

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Mosins do not have a "wow" factor because nice, original examples are cheap and easily available. That will change in a couple of decades.:)

I bought my first Mosin 91/30 two months ago and LOVE it. I want a few dozen more...

The main thing is to start. You have so many choices and I take it from your post you live in the USA so I would start with a good Moisin, they are very cheap, great shooters and lots of ammo is available. Then save and get a SKS, again a good shooter and I am sure you would like it. You have to decide if you want to collect by country or just any milsurp.

Start small, buy good quality no matter what you choose, as mentioned clean them religiously as generally milsurp ammo has corrosive primers and it would be a shame to ruin a great gun for lack of maintenance.

Welcome and let us know what when you make your first purchase.

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Originally Posted by easthawk

Mosins do not have a "wow" factor because nice, original examples are cheap and easily available. That will change in a couple of decades.:)

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And the first time you send the 7.62x54r round downrange and everyone turns to you and say's "what kind of cannon is that".

I also own a Carcano and a 1944 K98 Mauser. For the money you can't beat the Mosin Nagant, incredible deals right now and get's you shooting for very little investment. There is a lot of great advise here, as Patrick said get Paul Scarlata's book, look at your family history as Smellie suggested. You can also apply for for C&R license if you're here in the U.S. It's a great way to find deals, and have them shipped directly to your home, and you don't have to pay the transfer fee.

Good luck with whatever you decide, you have certainly come to the right place for information.

I started off with wanting to collect every known mauser about 20 years ago. My first two military surplus guns were a yugo model 98 mauser which is a captured german mauser with the markings scrubbed off with the yugo crest put on them. Its a german mauser at a yugo price, there the samey same. My second surplus rifle was a finnisn m39 mosin. Then i went and got a chinese sks when they were first offered. Then i got a russian m44 mosin. Then i sat tight for around 10 years doing other things. As my life went on i found my self with extra $$$ and wanted to get more into collecting guns. I thenm got my C&RFFL03 license and my very first buy was a turkiish m38 8mm mauser for $36.95. My point is for anyone who is interested in gun collecting you have to get your C&RFFL03 license and then hook up with a dealer locally who will only charge you for transfers on the modern guns too. We can have the best of both worlds. Plus we get discounts on gun accessories and ammo too on the net.
Back then i did find out there are over 1,000 different mausers so i went on to the military semi auto's and grabbed bolt action rifles inbetween. But right now i'm into C&R handguns, mausers again and modern handguns. CZY

BTW: I would suggest grabbing what mosins you can too. I have the russian and the finnish mosins. My problem is i like them all.

I think an excellent choice would be a Finn Mosin. You can find them with plenty of wow factor in terms of the stock, as well as the history you might be able to glean from it. Ammo is also the same as any other Mosin (ie, dirt cheap).

The mosin was my first milsurp. I love that thing. It is nice and tight. I got mine from AIM Suprlus for less than $100 and is came to me in awesome condition. I couldn't be happier. It was an actual WWII combat issue. A LOT of history there. That is what makes it sexy for me.

If you have $200, get a Yugo Mauser from Aim.

If you have $300, get a German Mauser from Dan's Sporting goods. Mine was nice and clean. It had some scratches and so forth, but I was surprised by how clean it was.

If you want really sexy, get an AES-10 which is a civilian version of the LMG version of the AK-47.

If you want cheap to shoot, get the mosin. The surplus ammo is still cheap and available.

I bought my first m-n for $39.00 plus shipping.
Imagine a rifle with 30-06 class power, bolt rifle, with a history for $39.
Fun to clean-up the first time and fun to shoot.
Not a moa rifle - but who cares?
Love to shoot it and to watch "enemy at the gates"

Has anyone thought of the horse power factor? I find my Garands to have a nice easy kick and the bolt actions to kick hard. To go to the range as often as you say I could not imagine shooting alot (say 100 rounds) with a M/N as I'm told everytime I ask, they kick hard. I'm 230 lbs at 6 ft (ok 5 11 and 3/4) and consider myself tuff enough but am getting to the age where I just don't want to take a beating. I will, and am looking to get both a M/N and a mauser(possible yugo) because of the $$$$ is right, but will shoot the garand for 100rds and then maybe a bolt for 10rds. that ratio works for me.

You want kick? Try a Marlin 512P slug gun. Or a Remington 710 in 30.06. They will kick you. The Garand is easier on the shoulder because of the gas system. You don't get that with the bolt guns. Factory ammo has a lot of thump but you can releoad and reduce the powder charge by a couple of grains and get probably even morte accurate ammo with less thump so you can shoot more. And yes reloadable brass for the 7.62x54R is available. Another o[tiom is to adda slip on recioil pad to the rifle butt. Try Winchester. They run around 30 bucks.

Dave,

Here's an old thread about mauser recoil that you might find interesting.

Mauser Recoil

cafdfw, went to the recoil thread you suggested. Great read and info I will use, thanks.

get an sks. cheap ammo, it dont beat you up, and it is mid road price wise. a mn 91/30 is a good choice and is good for 300 yrd's. a mauser is of coarse a good start,get a 24/47 or m48 yugo...you cant go wrong!

As someone who has just started in military surplus collecting I personally settled on the No4 Enfield as a starting point. I was taught to shoot by my grandfather who from my recollection never owned anything but a single No.4 Enfield, a few sporterized Mauser's and 03 Springfield's so I put a more than a few rounds down range in those. I have more than a passing interest in WW2 equipment from all sides so This set the era. I tried a couple different Mosin Nagant's owned by friends thinking that I would start there because of the price but I didn't really like how they handled. I also tried a Garand. Tho all of these were easy to shoot I found the Garand and Enfield the easiest to shoot well so it was between these two. The Enfield was the less expensive of these so it got the nod. This is just my personal experience. I will most likely own examples of most of these before I'm through but the Enfield will most likely stay the focus of my collecting for these and a few more reasons.

Great choice Rumpelhardt.

Besides being outstanding weapons, they're one of the most well known and historically significant milsurps around.

It's been my experience that it's better to be patient and save a little longer to get something I really have a passion for rather than to buy something inexpensive that I'm not completely thrilled with.
It's a matter of personal preference though.

I just bought my first military surplus rifle. After a lot of reading and talking to folks about them, I decided on the Swiss K31. I just got it recently and it seems like a very well made unit. There seems to be quite a few around, and they aren't that expensive. Not sure about the recoil yet.

My first milsurp was a M1 Garand from CMP about 10 years ago. I have shot it at Camp Perry in the national Matches ever since. My dream gun was the M1A but they are so darn expensive and I never thought I would own one. I got lucky and came across one for a steal and have shot in the Springfield match the last two years. My third milsurp was a 03A3 which I plan on shooting in a match sometime. About two years ago I picked up a m1917 then last year added a M1 Carbine and another Garand. About 6 months ago I found a Sistema Colt that is absolutely beautiful and shoots well to boot! Just recently I got a S&W Victory model and last week finally a Mosin Nagant 91/30 at my local gun store for $75. I just couldn't say no anymore to the MN.

I tend to be interested in shooting WWII rifles but once something catches my interest I usually research the heck out of it and save up until I find the right one. Searching is half the fun for me. Plus I tend to shoot what I buy so that is important to me. I say figure out what the most important issue is to you and then act accordingly.

If money is the deciding factor, then research several firearms that are within your budget and go with that. I keep watching what's available at gun shows and what the CMP makes available. The Garands have gone up since I got my first one for $450 but they still occasionally have good deals. My best deal from them was a mossberg US M44 target rifle for well under $100 dollars. I should have bought a dozen but money was tight.

Good luck and have fun!