My first go at reloading for .303 Brit

Hi all

I'm somewhat new to reloading, but my first couple of attempts with .38 Special were successful, so I'm about ready to have a go at reloading for my SMLEs. I've read a number of threads here and elsewhere (including a couple of epic O-ring threads) and I was hoping to get some advice on a couple of points, before I start.

Let me start by outlining where I'm at:

I have a mix of commercial brass (Win, Rem, S&B, maybe some Prvi) that was fired in my No.1 Mk. III* and a bunch of HXP '69 brass that was fired in my No.4 Mk.1

I didn't know about O-rings when I fired those rounds, but my brass is segregated by rifle.

I have a box of .311 Spitzer (Speer, 150 grain) and am being given a half box of Sierra, 180 grain .311 Spitzers.

I've ordered a Lee Deluxe die set, with FL and neck sizing dies and also ordered a factory crimp die. I'll probably pick my loads from the current Lyman or Lee books.

My first question is, given that I didn't use the O-ring fire forming technique, is my best move to full length size, fire form with an O-ring then neck size thereafter, or should I just skip straight to neck sizing. If the latter, is there any benefit to using an O-ring when I next shoot the rounds, or has that ship sailed?

My other question is, should I anticipate any problems fitting commercial primers in the HXP cases? If so, what's the preferred technique?

Thanks for any suggestions.

1st thing - scrap the S&B cases. Everyone I know who has reloaded them has had split cases by the second reload (3rd firing)
Win & Rem cases are a little better but try and use only the Prvi & HXP.
The Prvi and HXP have thicker rims and will 'in effect' tighten up your headspace.
Just measure the rim thicknesses between the various brands.

If you have kept the cases seperated by rifle then just neck size and keep them for the original rifle.

I've yet to have any success (accuracy wise) with the 150 grain bullets, they just dont seem to be long enough to stabilise in the rifling.

I agree with Alan's suggestions. Also, I have abandoned crimping - there's no need for it, as the neck tension is perfectly adequate with the neck resizing die.

It's so easy if you keep it simple. Either full length size and shoot any round in any rifle or neck size and segregate, and even then you'll have to full length size occasionally.
Until you're a bit more familiar with all the processes involved I'd recommend just full length sizing. It will eliminate any case size malfunctions ie. rounds not chambering, and it works fine.
I use remington brass and case life is excellent.
With the HXP you may just have to chamfer the primer pocket the first time you reload it with a little deburring tool you probably got in you reloading setup.
Regarding the o-ring technique, other than for some very questionable reasons (correcting excessive headspace???!!!, and getting indefinate case life....) I think it's a big fat waste of time and effort, and you should just plain forget it.

If you haven't already done so, you might read the post at Milsurps - Headspace 101 for .303's

This may help you understand what a rim spacer (O-ring or other material) can and can't accomplish. (Essentially, very little unless your rifle suffers from grossly excessive headspace or your cases have abnormally thin rims.)

:)O-rings also can be a help when you run into brass which just isn't fat enough for the chamber of he rifle. The O-ring will center the thing so that when it is fired, expansion will be all around the casing and thus won't give you a weak side and a strong side.

But your brass already has been fired. That CAN be bad, but not necessarily. What's GOOD is that you have segregated it by rifle..... and it shrinks a little before you remove it from the chamber..... so brass from Rifle A should fit back into Rifle A, Rifle B's brass will fit Rifle B and so forth.

My rifles show a definite preference for the Sierra 180, but I also get very good results with 150s. I think the secret lies in throwing away the book and seating your bullet so that they are the same length as a military Ball round. This gets your bullet closer to the leade, that vital first bit of rifling. Most .303 rifles have fairly generous leades, so it is possible, going by the book, to seat your bullets so that there is so much jump from the case-neck to the rifling that your bullets try to enter the rifling cocked a bit to one side, then hit the rifling and try to straighten out..... all in under a thousandth of a second..... and you have a deformed projectile attempting to shoot a match-grade target. So you seat the bullet out to military length in order to minimise the distortion. Works on my rifles, anyway.

As to primers, you will want to remove what bit of crimp is on the Greek cases (HXP), definitely. After that, primers should insert with no trouble.

You will be using American powders most likely, so here are a couple of loads you might try. These shoot very well in my own rifles, both coming in at well under 1 inch at 100 yards. The nice thing is that they both are relatively mild loads. In both cases, seat to the OAL of a military Mark VII Ball round.

With the 150 bullet, try 40 grains of IMR-4064 or IMR-4895.

With the 180 bullet, try 37 grains of IMR-4895.

These are my test loads for any .303. They are safe in any good-condition rifle made since 1888.

Have fun!
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Thanks Chaps, this is all very helpful. I had read Parashooter's Headspace 101, a long time ago, but I clearly needed a refresher.

Shame about the S&B - I have another three boxes of the stuff! Would I be right in thinking that there's no harm in trying to get at least one reload out of them?

I ordered the crimp die on the basis of the explanation on Lee's site - but Smellie's approach seems to make more sense. Since I'll have it, I might try a few permutations, (book OAL with and without crimp, military OAL, with and without crimp), just to see if I can notice any difference. Mind, there's only 0.1" difference in the OAL's (2.975" vs 3.075"). My quick attempt at searching did not reveal the OAL of Mk VII Ball, but I think I have some upstairs, that I can measure.

I'm in the same position , just starting out with re-loading because I can't find any cheap ammo in France . I'm thinking you could save the S&B cases for low powered short range plinking . Cast lead gas-check bullets pushed by shotgun powder ..... info is out there if you search .

I've only got one .303 and I can't understand why the fired cases (HXP) are tight rechambering , even before I've reloaded ! ... answers anyone ?

Cheers, Bill, that's kind of what I was thinking. At least the firearms restrictions in France are less bad than those in England (where I'm originally from). I had to move to Texas to find laws that were more to my taste.

No idea on the tightness thing - I could have a random wild guess, but it's probably better to wait for somebody who knows what they're talking about to comment.

Re the OAL of military Mark VII Ball - I pulled a stripper clip of 1944 Radway Green from the two bandos I have and measured all 5 rounds. I got a range from 3.005" to 3.040", which is a smidgin more than the 2.975" that my Lyman book calls for for 150 grain.

My Lee book, OTOH, gives an OAL of 3.075" for all weights, so I'll probably work to that (or a tad under) for both weights.

Many Enfields that have seen a lot of use are a little worn or corroded where the bullet enters the barrel. I found that they don't like light bullets or boat-tails. I use Hornady 3130 round-nose. They give excellent performance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Buntlineguy

Many Enfields that have seen a lot of use are a little worn or corroded where the bullet enters the barrel.

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You can make that "Many old service rifles" - it's not just an Enfield problem.
As a simple rule, I establish the OAL that results in the bullet just touching the lands, then reduce that by 0.5mm (20 thou) as a practical repeatable value, where inevitable production variations will not cause wide pressure and muzzle velocity variations. Using RCBS competition dies, excellent Lapua bullets, and quality Geco cases with a weight spread of less than 1 gn, measured velocity 5 meters from the muzzle is 833 meters/sec +/- 5 meters/sec for my 30-06 ammo. I have not yet done the measurements for 303. Don't try to get much closer to the lands - if you do, the tiny variations in OAL will then cause a wider velocity spread.

Having worked out this optimum OAL, you then have to check whether such a cartridge would actually fit into the magazine! For some rifles, the answer is no, and you just have to shorten the OAL until the cartridges fit - or use the rifle as a single loader (which is what one usually does here in competition shooting). You also have to make sure that there is still enough of the cylindrical section of the bullet (about 1 caliber length is minimum) in the case neck for secure seating. As a result, you may well find that your optimum OAL is only feasible with flat-base bullets, even flat-base round-nose bullets, and boattails are ruled out for the optimum OAL.

Patrick

B*gger! I´ve already got 11 re-loading cycles out of S&Bs! But I hate them anyway `cos the base doesn´t fit in the case holder when it´s set for any other make. I totally agree about boat tails.

Thanks Patrick - the points about it fitting in the mag and the minimum depth for proper seating hadn't occurred to me.

Re the latter (and boat tails) - is that something where the factory crimp die might help you get away with a little less depth than otherwise?

Villiers - good to hear the S&Bs aren't necessarily 100% trash.

My long-time range buddy passed away earlier this year. We spent close to 25 years on the local rifle ranges, messing about with an eclectic assortment of military surplus rifles of the 1890 - 1945 period.

He had spent some time in Scotland, just shortly after the end of the Second War, and was amazed by the long, long lists of casualties in the churches, casualties from the Boer War. A lot of troops in that war were recruited around Glasgow. As he got older and had a bit of money and the time to experiment, he determined to find out just HOW good the rifles of that war actually were, when shot with good ammunition. He was the only reloader I knew who did not possess a powder measure. He used an RCBS scale, a silver spoon, a cat-food tin and a folded bit of paper.... and he loaded the most accurate sporting ammunition I have ever used. His idea of "adequate" was well under 1 MOA; his idea of "good" was bullets on top of each other. He used scoped rifles with anything up to 24x to prove the ammunition, then it was run in the military rifles. And we used a LOT of sand-bags.

We were able to get 1 inch at 100 yards with a completely-original SMLE III*, NRF 1918. The load was the same 180-grain load I gave earlier in this thread.

Using the same load, we got 7/16-inch 2-shot groups from a Lithgow 1918 which had escaped being fired since it was made. It had had bedding problems, which we cured.

Using the same load, we repeatedly got 5/16-inch 2-shot groups, sometimes with touching or overlapping bullets, from DA 426, one of the early Rosses which had come off the old HMS Canada.

We found (as did the British, almost a century earlier) that nearly ALL Lee-Enfield rifles prefer a .312" bullet and that they show a definite preference for flat-base projectiles. We found that this holds for ANY rifle with Enfield rifling, including the US M-1917, of which we did serious testing on a dozen specimens over the years. At one time we had four M-1917s at the range at the same time, with 2 more completed testing and 2 more waiting their turn.

And we found that the .303 shoots its very best at a muzzle velocity of about 2250 ft/sec with the 180 bullet. Again, we simply confirmed what the guys at Enfield worked out in 1909 and 1910, while they were designing the Mark VII Ball round.

We found that the Ross does indeed "shoot harder" than a Lee-Enfield, confirming what commonly is believed a myth from the Great War. That extra 5 inches of Ross barrel gives you almost exactly 100 ft/sec over the other rifles, given that identical ammunition is used.

And we found that the Moisin-Nagant rifle also prefers a .312 bullet, although some will shoot well with even a .311". The loading-book recommendation of a .308" bullet is utterly hopeless.

We found that Mausers and Moisin-Nagants can be made to perform very well with boat-tailed bullets and that these can be a very real advantage at range. (We were shooting out to 800 yards, BTW, depending on the rifle; he REALLY liked Mausers for long-range.)

For the last year or so, I have been playing with the C.E. Harris "Universal" load for military rifles. Harris determined that most military-size rifles can be shot with 13 grains of Red Dot shotgun powder and a 180-grain CAST bullet and they will attain roughly similar exterior ballistic performance. They should get about 1800 ft/sec; accuracy will be about 2 MOA, making the rifles effectual out to about 300 yards or metres with a relatively mild, inexpensive loading which generates only mild recoil.

Hope some of this might help.
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Good thread, I really enjoyed reading it, thanks to all involved.

G'day,
I shoot fullbore 303 and definatly had the same problem with S&B brass, head seperations after 2 loadings, we use sierra 174gn Match King prodjectiles and load them to the same specs as Mk7 ammo with the prodjectile seated 50 thou or just under from the lands. With this combination you can still get bulls at 1000 yards.
My rifle has been rebuilt by a local 303 expert using a Lithgow heavy barrell and the rubber o'ring technique on the muzzle cap. It is very accurate.
Cheers.

I've just seen this thread and thought I'd add my 2c worth in regards to reloading a Mk3. No1 as I've got 1 with a heavy barrel.
I've set my OAL at the same length as the original military round and use 180gn Sierra Pro Hunter pill with 45.5 gns of AR2209 and this produces around a 2" group at 100yds using the battle sights over a rest.
I've also got a hold of 180gn Highland pills that I'm going to try as well,regards

All very interesting! And I agree with most of it. But I haven´t experienced the S&B case failures. Their cases last as long as most of the others (I only neck size). But the trouble with S&B cases (and some others) is that the rims are all different sizes so that my Forster Co-Ax press has to be re-set for different batches. And I agree that my LE No. 5 doesn´t like boattails ... nor soft tipped bullets that often seize on the ramp (I´ve tried different mags and there´s no improvement). I do use a crimp die .. but not set tightly.

I recently acquired a No4Mk2 and after shooting 4 boxes of Federal 180 gr ammo, I picked up a set of 303 Br. dies (full length resizing die). On the first reloading, I ended up with 4 of the first 20 rounds fired having complete case head separations. I scrapped the rest of the brass. I posted on Canadian Gun Nutz about the issue and was searching for a No3 bolt head. I had the rifle checked out and the head space was not the problem. One of the CGN members got me on the right path and I acquired a 303 neck sizing die.
As others have said on this thread, neck size only and segregate the brass by rifle it was originally fired in. It will save you a lot of grief.
I also agree with the O-ring process recommended by many on here for fire forming the brass to the chamber of your particular rifle.

I have had better luck with remington brand 303 brass as compared to the federal for reloading. Some of the remington is now on the 5th reloading and no issues.

I would think that the Lee Collet sizing die would be a lot easier on brass when compared to standard dies even a regular neck sizing die. Dragging that mandrill back up through the case has to do a lot of stretching of the case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rumpelhardt

Dragging that mandrill back up through the case has to do a lot of stretching of the case.

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Imagine what it would do to the mandrill.:lol:

Attachment 26327

On the other hand, the mandrel of the Lee collet die is highly polished - and since the brass springs away from it once the collet is released, there's no stretching involved. With conventional expander/sizer dies, there is no mandrel - just an "expander". If kept clean and case neck interiors appropriately lubed they don't stretch cases axially either - although their job is to stretch the neck radially for a good fit on the bullet.

Even spell check screws up some times.:rofl: but if you tried to read one of my posts without it you would have a field day with the spelling corrections.
Actually I was referring to the expander in the standard die so it wasn't just my spelling that was screwy.