Faking Anyting

Well everytime I see people building a reproduction (fake) anything I must say it really bothers me.

No one I believe that posts on this site is in the business of building a fake anything for profit. I honestly believe that they want to build because like many sometimes can't afford the real thing or it really is almost impossible to find.

Today we have no control over what happens to the object one it leaves the hands of the original builder. Built to a purpose but what if the second or third owner sells it as a original to a newbie.. I always consider myself to be a newbie.

The bonus of this site is the availability of experts to help one with a purchase or personal friends that are well versed in what I want to buy.

The unfortunte thing is the experts and knowledgeable on this site are not available at gun shows, and we all know what happens when we think we have found a good deal on and must act quickly.

If I could haul the knowledgeable with me to every show I would feel much better. We have heard people post that they have seen a fake at a show or somewhere and where did it end up and how was it sold..real or fake?

Just my opinion and I am sure many of you will disagree but that is ok with me. Today the marketing of fake everything is proliferating the world, scopes, guns, paintings, you name it and it makes me very cautious and very worried.

Maybe I just worry too much?

My view is there is no problem if the repro/fake is sold as such. Where we have issues is where someone a) tries to deceive people or worse, some poor soul got taken and unknowingly tries to on sell it.
I am a newbie too but I reckon I could spot a fake because I have spent a lot of time reading the forum.
As soon as I have some time I will start my no4t and l42 repros. Repros because I value my gonads :)

Well that is my point, you are going to build one and after if leaves your hands what is going to happen. It is doubtful that the majority of people can guarantee that they can spot a reproduction (fake) every time. Over the years I have seen some of the best fooled by reproductions of various things and I do believe it can happen just as easily with firearms.

Personally I have three Sheriff's Badges from the frontier days in the USA. They are real but to me are fakes, why because although there were made on the original dies they were actually made in the 1950's. I believe it would be impossible to tell them from the originals because of how they were made, but I still consider them fakes. The man I purchased them from told me he would defy anyone telling him they were not original and could easily have sold them as such.

MP (RCMP) marked rifles are out there that are believe to have been maked by a set of stamps that were sold years ago. Seeing as the records of MP rifles is not complete what is real and what is a fake. Certain numbers are recorded but not all were recorded so tell me how to distinguish the unlisted from being real of fake.

As before, maybe I just worry too much?

IMHO you can almost guarantee that somewhere down the line someone is going to pay too much for a item that they believe to be real but was a reproduction.

Anyone want to buy some "real" Sheriff's badges?

You do worry too much :)

I won't be stamping a T on it or S51 but i will use repro parts and from a glance it will look legit. Anyone that won't be able to tell it's not legit shouldn't be buying one a they havent done any homework.

I think you just need to really watch out. I see plenty of put together rifles that are done nicely, and a lot that are not. It is very difficult to build a superb fake rifle that would fool experts. I suppose some of the fakes that may be "worthwhile" to put together are the rarer snipers, but even those I doubt serve anyone financial gain as the parts themselves can be sold for more separately, than they can in a cobbled rifle. The scopes, mounts brackets, timber and small parts can be sold fairly freely around the world to the highest bidder, unlike the complete piece.
If someone is green enough to pay thousands for a No4 T look-a-like with cheekpiece and a cheap commercial scope then who's fault is that?
I like rebuilding rifles, and putting together rifles that are as close to original as I can make them. If and when I sell them I am perfectly honest about what they are, and what I've done. If they get passed on and lies get told, or miscommunication occurs then too bad.
I put all mine together to shoot, make use of salvaged parts, and for fun. There will always be profiteers and scumbags, but that's their problem.
Just my two cents.

xa-coupe I know where enfield303T is coming from. He has an Indian No4 MkI T. There were many that called it a fake. I know, because I owned it at one time. Indian No4 T rifles have virtually no written provenance. It took me a long time to get that rifle verified by people that knew them, including an east Indian cabbie I met in Vancouver. He told me about the No4 Ts they had in India Yada yada. I was finally satisfied enough to let him have it but it took more than 5 years to be comfortable with it. Now, he's had verification by others that he trusts as well.
No matter what, it's a crap game.
I picked up a Garand M1 D last year. I showed pictures here but of course it didn't have CMP provenance papers and it had serial numbers stamped on the wood as well. There were pictures of the rifle, kindly posted for me on this site. The rifle just looked to good to be a fake. Luckily, I ran into a fellow at the Salmon Arm show that recognised it. He identified it as Norwegian. It seems, the Norwegians are anal about stamping matching numbers into every part. I have a few Norwegian rifles and I also remember seeing some Norwegian built 1911 pistols. All of them, were coverd with matching numbers on every part. So, I now believe the M1-D is real but never used in US service but Norwegian. Doing a search, proves the Norwegians purchased quite a few Garand M1Ds.

It would be nice to be able to peg every firearm or accessory by going to a book or on the internet. We all know that just can't happen. Sometimes, we just have to go on faith.

The only answer is knowledge. There is a sliding scale from maintenance through refurbishment, repair, restoratation, remarking to downright faking and fraud.

I think I can (at least to my satisfaction) show one clear yes/no border.

If you refinish (because badly rusted) a barrel band on a K98k or replace it by an original part, that is quite OK, as it is merely doing what an armorer would have done years ago - maintaining the rifle's function. If the replacement part has a different number , so what. Armorers are there to keep the equipment functioning, not to play numbers games for collectors. Ask Peter Laidler on the Enfield Forum if you don't believe me.

If you now stamp a number on that part, to match the rest of the rifle, then that is faking. And if you stamp a WaA marking on it, which in origin was a quality control mark, then that is downright forgery. The penalties in the days when those rifles were made were severe.

So I am staggered to see that in the USA one can apparently purchase stamps for just about everything, even American arsenal stamps. And from what I have already written, it must be clear that

THERE IS NO LEGITIMATE USE FOR SUCH STAMPS.

Now consider the following:
1) In the USA one can purchase stamps for remarking German (and other) military rifles.
2) And in the USA there appear to be arsenal-fresh K98k's available in noticeable quantities, with all-matching parts numbering.

3) In Germany such stamps are not on offer.
4) And there are no noticeable quantities of arsenal-fresh K98k's available with all-matching parts numbering.

Draw your own conclusions. And the answer is - better knowledge, to raise the threshold for fakers and forgers so that it becomes uneconomic.

Uneconomic - that is the clue, because the forgery is NOT about "restoring it to its original condition" it is about fraudulently increasing the value - it is about MONEY.

And collectors and plain ignorant suckers who have more money than expertise can largely blame themselves for feeding the market for forgeries.

This is, of course, merely my opinion. Comments welcomed!

Patrick

A really big problem is that, what with all the faking going on these days, the guy with a super-nice completely original rifle is at risk of being branded a crook when he goes to sell it.

An example: I have a Kar 98k. It's a dou 45, it has had less than 300 rounds through it since I took the grease out of it and it is a darned nice rifle. Right now, these seem to be going, around here, for $1,000 and even higher. I paid $39.95 for the rifle, plus 5% tax, more than 40 years ago. I can remember crates of them being unpacked and sold for $27.50 (I was earning $40 a week). But NOBODY ever thought they would go to the crazy prices they are today. So if I come onto the market with one which is VERY close to new, I can pretty well guarantee that somebody is going to scream "FAKE!!!!!". And it isn't. It's the Real Thing. I bought it 40 years ago and I don't kick my stuff around. I can't afford to. Likely, neither can you.

The same thing goes for my UNFIRED Martini-Henry Mark IV.... which is worth a lot more than the $17 I paid for it, very close to 50 years ago.

Fortunately, most of my collection is one step ahead of the scrap-dealer.... and nobody fakes junk. Yet.

But it is a problem, and it is going to get worse.
.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smellie

Fortunately, most of my collection is one step ahead of the scrap-dealer.... and nobody fakes junk. Yet.

---

:lol: :lol:

Regards,
Doug

I think it is good to see opinions on this topic. I personally would not help anyone that I didn't know very well or trust completely with any question on how to make a reproduction of anything. I know there are some things that would be much easier to reproduce than others. The internet allows people to be very anonymous and appear to be what they want us to think they are.

I think if a person owned a legit scope, mount, pads for a T it would not be too difficult to fake the rifle, well at least alot easier than faking a scope IMO. The problem of technology being so advanced today makes it almost too easy with some things.

Too often and not just on any one site I see people ask very detailed questions as they are "restoring" something and not just firearms and we really don't know exactly what is happening. These request are almost about anything you can think of and for me a red flag pops up instantly.

Don't get me wrong, I do know the majority of people are honest, it's the others that I don't trust but again the internet makes us all so very anonomous. I always think of the person I knew that had a extremely collectable handgun, only one side of the gun was every photographed as the opposite side had different engraving thus making it impossible to copy. Eveyone knew this feature of the gun so wouldn't attempt to fake one. Believe me if it had been possible it would have been done.

Their is an old saying that "if it seem's to good to be true," it probably is.;)

Like smellie, almost all of my milsurp rifles are what I call 'trench brutes'; functional but not at all fine.

smellie, just to put things into perspective, a new in grease 98 mauser, was approximately an average weeks pay in Canada 40 years ago. I was lucky, and made slightly more that 2x that amount after deductions. In 1969, factory fresh crates of K98 mausers with BYF 42-44 marks, could be purchased along with all of the accessories for $125/crate. 8 rifles in wax paper wrap, tied with red ribbons, matching bayonets and slings wrapped in a sealed wax paper wrap. The numbers in the crate, were sequential.
Considering what you could buy with that money back then, the $40 you paid for that rifle is about what anyone making $30-$35/hour today, would pay for a pristine example. Not that much has changed.

Great thread! I love all the great opinions here. Thanks guys!:thup:

I will not name names but there is a company the restores M1 rifles, carbines and 03/a3's.Thier work is absolutly top notch and the rifles are really beautiful. but the inspection stamps and rifle proof stamps on the stocks are fakes. They look better than origionals. and are correct for the date of manufacture. fake but real beauties. and the price is very reasonable.

I think I'll give up guns and start collecting lawnmowers. Anyone know if they're being humped yet?

I won't say it doesn't happen, but there aren't a lot of "fake" milsurps in Canada. There are a lot of refurbs here, just like most places. We don't have the CMP either but from what I can tell, that may not be such a bad thing. If the CMP is the only thing there is to fall back on for verification, there will be a huge gap in knowledge as well as collectible surplus firearms.

I honestly don't have a problem with rifles that have been put together from original parts. They are also pretty easy to spot, in most cases.

I can understand people wanting to own certain firearms and the lengths they will go to get one, real or not. In many cases, it would cost more to build the fake than a real collectible is worth. Many of these firearms went through all sorts of modifications in their life spans. Not all were done by armorers and some were. Look at the Turkish milsurps, just about anything can be encountered on them. Does that make them wrong? Many of those Turks were modified to keep them working when available parts supplies ran out. It seems that they bought huge quantities of firearms but cannibalised them to keep the rest going. Other nations did the same thing of course but the Turks were masters of innovation. They even converted Lee Enfields to shoot the 8x57 mauser and fitted fore ends, barrels, Mauser style rear sights and upper hand guards as well as extensive magazine modifications. I've only seen pics of them but I would love to own one. These are bubbas. They were made up from cannibalised parts. What rating do we give them? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you like it, buy it. If you don't, for whatever reason, pass on it.

In the end it's your choice. By the way, I don't like it when a firearm is passed off as being original if it isn't. Many people just don't know what they have. Unlike most on this board, they do little or no research. Their pennies are pinched and to tell the truth, they bought the story rather than the firearm. When they pass it on, the story gets better every time it changes hands. In their minds, they don't want cold hard facts because that dulls the charisma of the tale.

Just my 2 cents.

I cannot afford a real #4MkI T, so I am building one. It is an FTR's Maltby with mismatched pieces and parts. I bought an ATI mount, a cheek piece from Numrich Gun Parts, and a Weaver K2.5 scope, Weaver rings, and a 1907 type sling from Triple K. It is not even close to correct in any way. At a glance and feel it is close enough and will cost me less than $400, when I am done.

I cannot guarantee that someone will not try to scam it off as real T sometime in the future; but that would be like thinking a fiber glass body on a VW frame is a real Porsche. If you think that I have a bridge I would like to sell ya...

I think making facsimiles is fine. No real way to confuse the two. Reproductions are by nature supposed to look as close as possible to the real thing. The best reproduction is the same as an original. Intent is what differentiates the two. One is an investment the other is a fraud. Reputable reproductionist should incorporate inconsistencies into the repro. AKA the Gibbs 1903A4. The new barrel has a Gibbs crest stamped on it. The scope has different marking and adjustments. A knowledgable collector will see those marks and know that it is a reproduction. (not to mention that the original receiver markings were left and not stamped off center from the mounts, etc...)

Buyer be ware!
If it is too good to be true it probably is.
Knowledge is power.

Simply, know what you are about!

Forging collectable items is something that has been going on since the year dot. It will most likely continue till the end of mankind's existance. There are two main motives behind this: 1, MONEY. 2, The overwhelming desire to have an example of an item that can't otherwise obtained. It would be quite easy to put the con artist type fakers out of bussiness. The best way to do this is to simply educate one's self on the thing they wish to aquire BEFORE they jump the gun and buy the first one they trip over. In this modern day and age of the computer and the internet this is easy to do. Not everyone is rich enough or lucky enough to be able to obtain original examples of the objects of their desire. Thats where the second motive of forgery comes into play. There are two rifles i have always dreamed of owning. One of these i will likely never own and the other is only remotely possible. So, I built replicas. Pretty d@#* good ones too. They're not spot on matches but very close. I built them to enjoy, not to attempt to deceive some "newbie" with so don't be condemning me for doing the best i can.