Help needed with 03A4 with Lyman Scope - Post Retical

Hi,

I hope someone can help me with some scope questions. I purchase about 33 years ago a 03A4 Remington SN#341xxxx and with two Lyman scopes. The first scope is a M82 SN#16xx. The second scope is a Alaskan, with the same post retical, SN#5435, the adjustment caps #7575180, eye relief #7634670 and the blocks for the elevation/windage with #7634671 on both blocks. Neither block says ALL Weather. These part numbers correspond to the numbers on the M82 scope. The scope came with 7/8" Junior mounts on it and was the scope on the weapon.

I been reading threads about these scopes, when they were used and can't seem to get a definite reading on when the M82 scopes actually were used 03A4s. Also the other Alaskan scope with the military drawing numbers on the parts, is this an early delivered scope or an overstock military parts on post-war civilian scope production from Lyman? The SN is close to the first batches of scopes Lyman delivered SN# 4900-5200 made of civilian parts to the Ordnance Dept. The stamping of the SN#5435 and Lyman info is on the top of the scope tube when mounted. I've included photos of the Alaskan scope here and photos of the M82 SN#1601 for comparison in a following blog.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...laskanaa-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...Alaskanb-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...laskanbb-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...laskancc-1.jpg


Thanks, James

James,
If you will email me with your email address i have some information which may be of assistance to you.

To your basic question. There is no doubt that Ordnance wanted to use the Alaskan on the A4 during WW2. Procurement of Alaskans ws authorized in December 42 by the committee that approved the specifications for the A4.

Unfortunately for the A4 the Alaskan (militarised as the M73) was not to be even though it is mentioned in several publications. When Alaskans did begin to become available during mid 44in the M81/82 configurations they were used on M1C's.

Its certainly possible that an M81 or M82 found its way on to an A4 say during the Korean war.
But the only documentary evidence i can point to is ORD 8 SNL B-3 dated 30 Oct 1956 with authorizes the use of the M73, M81 or M82 on a "substitute exhaust item" basis. I believe what this means (military supply lingo is not my forte) that if a supply unit does not have the approved primary scope (still the M73b1) or the approved alternate (M84) then you are authorized to use up what remaining M73's, M81's or M82's are on hand to fulfill a need.

Earlier authorization to this effect may have been issued but this is the best information I have on hand. Also Col. Brophy cites the 1956 SNL in the section of his '03 Book entitled "Telescopes Used on the M1903A4"

Regards,

Jim

Putting an Alaskan on an A4 will result in eye relief that is not correct with the turret either in front of or behind the scope ring. I tried it!

Thanks Jim (JGaynor) for the info on the M82 scopes.

The article you sent on the M1C Sniper put my M82 scope SN#1601 as being made by Wollensak Optical Corporation, a second source for M82 scopes at the end of WWII. The 7/8" rings on the scope are the parkerized Type II for an 03A4.

The article does suggest the other Alaskan scope SN#5435 with a post reticule and military part numbers, as possibly being in the initial deliveries of scopes from Lyman to the Ordnance Department. This was during the transition and gearing up from commercial to WWII wartime production and the initial labeling of commercial component scopes. I'll open for more information and want to figure out the oddity of this scope.

James

Musketshooter (I hope this is not a thread hijack) but, why do you say that the eye relief is not going to be correct with a Alaskan on an A4 clone?

Interesting scopes. 1601 is, as mentioned, a very late Wollensak probably delivered after the war as "work in progress" when the contracts were cancelled. Could use a pic of the nomenclature stamp, should be two-line with no FSN.

The other one is odd. Are you positive about the serial? 54oo would seem to be right at the beginning of post-war commercial production when leftover military parts were common, but it isn't typical. More pix!

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the blog. I read your article that Jgaynor sent me, "M81 and M82 Telescope sights for the M1C Sniper." Your article says that the first batch of Lyman scopes came with 4900 to 5200 serial numbers on the tube. These were being etched M73B1 and the bases on the scopes had "Telescope-M-73." Then the scopes had the "Telescope-M-73" ground off, part numbers put on and the M81 designation rolled on the tubes. With scopes being in short supply, would not more than one batch of scopes be built and sent, especially with the M82 on the way. The scope I'm researching is at 5435, 235 units away from 5200. The article states that a few post war production in the SN#6000 range with "ALL Weather" on the bases, used some left over internal military parts. Could this scope be from the beginning of the M82 production and when the marking of the scopes changed from M81 to M82, during the time then current inventories of civilian parts were being exhausted?

This scope has the early caps with the military numbers on it and both of the bases have been ground on one side and the military part numbers added over. This is a post reticle scope and has the wear on the front of the tube and rear eyepiece from a scope cover. Bluing is consistant on all parts of the scope. Wouldn't Lyman exhausted all civilain tubes, ground bases and early caps in military scope production? With the serial number only 235 units away from the first batch and the article indicating batches were delivered during the intial gearing up of military production, what was the last of the civilian numbered tubes?

I'll put up some more pics of the Alaskan scope, which was on the 03A4 when I bought it in 1977. I bought the M82 marked scope a short time later because at the time I was told that it had been a Korean conflict part and it just looked wicked. It has superb clarity. I'll post better pictures.

Also your article and research was really good.

Thanks, James

Hi Bob,

I posted the pictures of the Alaskan scope #5435 in the first blog and pictures of the M82 scope in this blog, so they would not be mixed up. See what you think. I have seen alot of Alaskan scopes and franky never saw military numbers on civilian scopes. With the production of scopes and scope parts a priority in 1943, it seems odd that these parts would be left for civilian production two years later. Articles suggest that lack of scope availability was holding up 03A4 deployment in 1943 and 1944.

Thanks James

Would an ALaskan Lyman with serial # B 4960 be correct for an M1C and if so WWII or post war rebuild?

Thanks

James (bightonknioght):

On your ALASKAN marked military scope with tapered post reticle, would you please carefully check:

1. The serial number on the tube, in tiny numbers just after the word ALASKAN. You describe it as 5435 but I suspect that it is 3435 based upon your photo.

2. You did not show any engraved markings on the side of the tube. Does it actually say M82 on this one?

3.Is there a stock number 83374 or possibly 84373 engraved on the side of the tube below an army serial number?

Thank you.

I had a lengthy discussion with Jim Land in 2004 at the NRA Annual Meetings in Pittsburg, PA about the different types of scopes used on the 1903A4. He had his collection of USMC sniping equipment on display with the Dallas Arms Collector's Assn. He told me there were five scopes approved and used by the USMC. The Weaver 330, M73B, Lyman Alaskan, M81 and M82. I'm not sure about the Army but I'd say the M82 is perfectly acceptable as a correct scope on the 1903A4. I have one with the M73B and the M82. The Lyman scopes are so much better. I've never had a problem with eye relief using the Alaskan or M82 on my rifles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

I had a lengthy discussion with Jim Land in 2004 at the NRA Annual Meetings in Pittsburg, PA about the different types of scopes used on the 1903A4. He had his collection of USMC sniping equipment on display with the Dallas Arms Collector's Assn. He told me there were five scopes approved and used by the USMC. The Weaver 330, M73B, Lyman Alaskan, M81 and M82. I'm not sure about the Army but I'd say the M82 is perfectly acceptable as a correct scope on the 1903A4. I have one with the M73B and the M82. The Lyman scopes are so much better. I've never had a problem with eye relief using the Alaskan or M82 on my rifles.

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With all due respect its important to describe the time periods or the conflicts where these scopes were used. The A4 was in service for many years.

Can anyone help describe what the history of my Lyman 2.5x All Weather Alaskan scope is?

Serial number is 6205.

Under turret caps it says All-Weather.

The Entry Objective Bell says "2-1/2 Power"

The Elevation Turret Cap says 7575180

The Windage Turret may be replaced, it has no number and is of a different design.

The scope has what appears to be conetrol style rings.


The only other interesting thing is that the reticle crosshairs are what I'd call a German Post. It has a post from 6 o'clock and a fine horizontal wire from 3 to 9 o'clock.

Thanks for the education. Value would be helpful as well, the gun is in about 90% condition. And what rifle (civilian or military) from what era would this scope belong?

This is an old thread, but your scope is simply a post war commercial Lyman Alaskan. They were available with post or crosshare reticles. "Most" of the military use ones were void of the "All Weather" and "Alaskan", the locations had part numbers on them instead and the scopes were roll stamped differently with military designations. M81 for the crosshare and M82 for the post.

They were used post WWII through Korea.

Hi,

Sorry about the slow reply. The Alasken scope shown serial number is 5435. This scope only has commercial markings. The first scope tube brought into the program were serial #4900-5200 supposedly. The elevation/windage blocks were had "Telescope-M-73" ground off, with the numbers 7634671 stamped on. One of the blocks still has part of 73 on it. The recital is the single long sniper post, without any crosshair. The caps are marked properly. An odd scope that I got with the Wollensak scope shown above and a Weaver M73B1 scope when I bought my 03A4 back in the early 1980s. Below are a couple of pictures of the Alaskan serial number and commercial markings.

https://www.milsurps.com/
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...sken2JPG-1.jpg

Hi,

Sorry about the slow reply. The Alasken scope shown serial number is 5435. This scope only has commercial markings. The first scope tube brought into the program were serial #4900-5200 supposedly. The elevation/windage blocks were had "Telescope-M-73" ground off, with the numbers 7634671 stamped on. One of the blocks still has part of 73 on it. The recital is the single long sniper post, without any crosshair. The caps are marked properly. An odd scope that I got with the Wollensak scope shown above and a Weaver M73B1 scope when I bought my 03A4 back in the early 1980s. Below are a couple of pictures of the Alaskan serial number and commercial markings.

https://www.milsurps.com/
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...sken2JPG-1.jpg

http://homenetcom.com/~brknight/smle1.JPG
http://homenetcom.com/~brknight/smle2.JPG
http://homenetcom.com/~brknight/smle3.JPG

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brightonknight

http://homenetcom.com/~brknight/smle1.JPG
http://homenetcom.com/~brknight/smle2.JPG
http://homenetcom.com/~brknight/smle3.JPG

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Links did not work for me.