A question for Australian and New Zealand members from North America:

Gentlemen,

A question for Australian and New Zealand members from North America:

I seem to recall that a shipment of No 4 rifles was sent to Australia from Canada sometime shortly after the fall of Singapore, which would be sometime after February of 1942. I do not recall the exact number of rifles, but seem to recall that it was at least 2~4,000 rifles. I also seem to recall that the rifles were issued to the VDC, the RAAF and some militia battalions that saw combat in New Guinea sometime in mid 1942. I also seem to recall that Lewis Maynard (Vulch) posted on this board or another board now gone pictures of these rifles in Australian service and the vast majority of them had “waisted” early front sight protectors, as well as the round cocking knob. Please feel free to correct me on any of the above, or add any information that I have missed.

Now to another question: What happened to these rifles? Are any of them still in Australia? If not is it possible that they were sent to New Zealand during WWII or just after the war?

I ask as I saw an interesting rifle this weekend. It was a NZ marked Long Branch MK I* which someone had sported. The serial range was around 5L0330. 1942 date with an early cross hatched MK II sight. The barrel was dated 1942 and was a two groove variety. The NZ rifle number was 971, making it the earliest Long Branch NZ gun I have seen. No import marks, so it is likely one of the Pre 1968 imports by Century Arms around 1964~1966 or so. So far nothing but an early NZ modified No 4 MK I* Yawn.

Now the kicker: The rear cocking piece was the round variety and looked original to the matching bolt. While not on the rifle, the seller had the front sight cover (removed when the rifle was sported), this was an early Long Branch “waisted” sight cover. There was not likely to have been any attempt at improving the rifle by adding parts, as the entire kit was 130 dollars. Given the serial number and the slightly different shade of blue the “waisted” cover is not likely original to the rifle, but I would guess it was on the rifle when the gentlemen had it sported, he had no other .303 rifles. So the “waisted” sight protector most likely came off another similarly early Long Branch rifle.

So that got me to thinking. Most of the NZ rifles I have seen were in the 22Lxxxx and later numbers. Is it possible that the Australians supplied their No4 Long Branch rifles to New Zealand at some point? Do any of the many ANZAC folks here have any insight on this?

Thanks in advance

Frederick 303

The earliest NZ marked Long Branch I've seen is 1941 1L458X.
The latest is 1942 24L587X.
I have data on NZ marked 2L, 3L, 5L,7L,12L,15L,16L,19L, 23L, and 24L rifles.
With the number of early Long Branch's being shipped, I suppose it is entirely possible that some were shipped with the waisted front sight. This view from the States......

Have you seen any of these rifles equipped with the “waisted” front sight covers? I ask as I have not. I recall exchanging Email with the Late Maj. Williams and he said most of the NZ No 4 rifles came into New Zealand service after WWII. Apparently when the post war debts were being resolved New Zealand got a quantity of around 30~40,000 of these rifles from UK stocks held in Italy. Some were turned in “used” but according to Maj. Williams, many were still unissued. Most of those I have seen were in the 22L and later series, though I have never bothered to keep a log. My memory is that all I have seen were1942~ 1943 dated, but I am not sure if that memory is correct.

I was not aware of so many early serial number rifles, which has me wondering if they might have come from the early shipment of No4 rifles into Australia. I do not ever recall seeing any indication of what happened to them, or Australian shooters posting them.

Thanks in advance

Fredeick303

New Zealand certainly received No.4s from Canada around 1942-43, but they were never issued to NZ troops serving overseas. They stayed home and were issued to Home Guard, Police and Air Force units. They were not built to a specific NZ contract - they were pulled from existing Canadian Army stocks. I'll have to go through some notes to get the exact number that were delivered.

I've always been told that Australia didn't receive No.4s until after the war and the numbers involved were not huge as they were already producing their own No.1s. Australian marked No.1s are pretty common here in NZ, but I've never seen an Aussie marked No.4.

I would have paid $130.00 for just the LB waisted sight protector!Only seen 2 in 25 years collecting!

I have been gathering serial number information, and details as this generally are not furnished from contributors. :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

Have you seen any of these rifles equipped with the “waisted” front sight covers? I ask as I have not. I recall exchanging Email with the Late Maj. Williams and he said most of the NZ No 4 rifles came into New Zealand service after WWII. Apparently when the post war debts were being resolved New Zealand got a quantity of around 30~40,000 of these rifles from UK stocks held in Italy. Some were turned in “used” but according to Maj. Williams, many were still unissued. Most of those I have seen were in the 22L and later series, though I have never bothered to keep a log. My memory is that all I have seen were1942~ 1943 dated, but I am not sure if that memory is correct.

I was not aware of so many early serial number rifles, which has me wondering if they might have come from the early shipment of No4 rifles into Australia. I do not ever recall seeing any indication of what happened to them, or Australian shooters posting them.

Thanks in advance

Fredeick303

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Fredrick303,
Don't quote me on it but while researching my LB, I recall reading somewhere that a shipment of No4 that had been originally ear marked for the Aussie army to supplement the early Ligthow's production, was directed to the RAAF and NZ. Additionally I have seen pictures of Aussie's with them in PNG at the Aussie airstrips. I presume these would have been airforce guard. Bruce from Oz, might be able to fill you in more. His dad had used them in the RAAF, not sure if during or after the war.

Myles

Wasn't there a shipment of supplies meant for Singapore that was stuck in the Philippines during early 1942?

Other than one Pattern 14 the only NZ marked I have seen is a 21L series.

P-07ShortLee,
I think it was destined for the British troops in Singapore. But when Singapore fell it was diverted downunder to Australia, NZ and or the British stationed here.

I may be wrong, but didn't the shipment originate from Canada? I don't recall what all was mentioned, but I think the one I was thinking of was actually caught on it's way to Singapore and ended up in Manila. I think there were references to vehicles that were Canadian built that were used before Bataan fell in April '42?

Might have been rifles too? Can't recall where I read it.

I have a 2L LB with NZ ownership marks in new condition and it doesn't have the waisted front sight guard or hinged upper band. I'd guess there aren't many so equipped.

Regarding Aussie issue of No.4 rifles, I did things the old way and read a book.....

Mr. Skennerton writes in 'Australian Service Longarms' of 1976 - my copy is number 1197 of 2000 printed - on page 169...

"About 2,000 No.4 Mk I rifles made at Long Branch, in Canada, were diverted to Australia in 1942 when Allied forces were defeated in Asia. They were issued to RAAF and AEME (Australian Electrical and Mechanical Engineers) for training purposes."

The rifle shown on this page is a true No.4 Mk I not a * and is said to have Australian Issue marks on the butt and has the early button cocking piece, but a standard straight frontsight protector.

The rifles were possibly intended for the Canadian Army in Hong Kong, which fell on Christmas Day 1941.

No.4's were also used by the Volunteer Defence Corps. From the AWM collection #063000:
"YUNGABURRA, QLD. 1944-01-16. LANCE CORPORAL J. S. RUSSELL OF NO. 10 PLATOON, 17TH BATTALION, VOLUNTEER DEFENCE CORPS GETTING THE FEEL OF HIS NEW RIFLE AND BAYONET"

#063700
MOSSMAN, QLD. 1944-01-24. THE SECOND IN CHARGE OF E COMPANY, 17TH BATTALION VOLUNTEER DEFENCE CORPS INSPECTING TORRES STRAIT ISLANDER MEMBERS OF THE UNIT. LEFT TO RIGHT: Q219685 LIEUTENANT A. J. MORGAN; Q219728 PRIVATE D. PITT; Q219716 PRIVATE P. JOSE; Q219698 PRIVATE W. AH WONG.