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I don't know the protocol for posting links but if you look on gun broker for item 205207658 there is what looks to be an experimental hybrid ( my word ) based on the no1 mk3 but build by Savage. There are lots of differences as well as similarities.
This is very interesting, does anyone have any more information other than the description ?
Savage Experimental Rifle (British SMLE style) : Curios and Relics at GunBroker.com
WOW
That just messed with my mind
There was a thread some time back on CGN, I believe, about these critters. Savage made up about a dozen of them while angling for a contract from the British Government. No dice that time, but the Powers That Be sometimes have memories, so Savage ended up with a contract for a million-odd Number 4s a few years later.
I would really like to spend an afternoon on a rifle range with one of these things, but I don't suppose the occasion will ever arise.
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yeah, styled after the SMLE but major differences. I would love to have a good solid look at that baby.
There is also a springfield experimental rifle that seems to be from the same era. Both are extremely interesting.
Wanna buy a bridge?Quote:
Originally Posted by xa-coupe
That same rifle (or the last one they made like it (?)) came up for sale a few years ago from the same place.....This one is currently on it's third time around in a month without a bid.... hmmmm.... I think I'd like to see some official documents before I part with $950 and hang it in the pool room..... hold on, $9,500!!! "Tell 'em they're dreamin!"
lol, I said it was interesting, I didn't say I was even thinking of buying it !! I'd be spending $9500 on something else myself.
Looks like some sort of Bannerman's cobble. Odd.
I have followed this rifle since it first appeared on the scene in a Shotgun News Ad a number of years ago. I was late in responding and I believe there were two? of them and they were gone. The price seemed very high at the time as there was no paperwork to support what they were claimed to be. Price was under $1000.00. They showed up within six months on the forums with requests for information and a higher price tag. Pictures seemed to indicate parts were missing. And so on with each new owner going to get rich.
At various times it was claimed that it was built up for WWI but the action is a Savage Model 1920 (post WWI) model. Sharpe's "The Rifle in America" lists the Model 1920 production life from 1920 to 1928 and the Model 40 from 1920 to 1938.
If it was made up for WWII, the argument was that it was a quickie alternative to meet the British need for Arms. I can't get this to fit any time line that makes sense given that Savage had the contract to make the No.4. Even if Britain had said yes to this design, the Savage tooling could not have supported any volume production with out extensive new tooling which would have required the same or greater effort that would have to have been expended if they tooled the No.4. This just does not make sense.
Savage records were destroyed in a flood in the 50's. The only thing that gave it any credability was that the price was relatively low at the time, indicating you weren't paying for machine time. But some people will do crazy things to run a fake. If Britain had some to evaluate, wouldn't a sample be in the Pattern Room Collection?
These are my thoughts and why my money stayed in my pocket and I have not lost a wink of sleep over the matter. I always question any item that the seller has to tell me how rare it is to get me to buy. I am all for someone buying it, if they spend their money on it, they won't have money to buy someithing I might like. Number 1 rule, never buy anything that you can't sell for the same price the next day.
Posted original ad content here to save it for posterity … ;)
Regards,Quote:
Savage Experimental Rifle (British SMLE style) : Curios and Relics at GunBroker.com
12/7/2010 11:51:38 PM ET
Auction Started at $9,500.00
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! All the items purchased after December 13 will be shipped after January 5, 2011. Thank you for supporting us in 2010. We hope to hear from you again in 2011! One of the kind Savage experimental bolt action rifle! Caliber: . 303 Enfield. There is no information on this rifle available in known to me Savage reference literature. The rifle was, most likely, manufactured during the World War One. The style of the rifle copies the lines of British military Lee Enfield (SMLE) rifles. One piece (!) SMLE style walnut stock with a pistol grip and a full length handguard. The front sight/nosecap assembly, rear sights, brass buttplate and magazine are taken from standard SMLE rifle and they show British markings (and old serial numbers on the magazine and nosecap only). The caliber is standard British military .303 Enfield. This may lead to the conclusion that the rifle was offered to the British military during the Great War, or at least, was intended for some kind of British military trials. The rifle features very sturdy, military style bolt action. In fact, the latter is very similar to the action utilized in Savage Model 1920 rifle, just the bolt seems to be slightly longer. This rifle may be a predecessor of Savage Model 1920! The trigger guard and a single shot cut off are missing from the rifle, and there is no sign that they were ever installed. Perhaps, the rifle was never completed by the Savage factory. The left side of the buttstock displays a brass disc with following markings, "Made by Savage Arms Co., Utica, N.Y., U.S.A.". The serial number is stamped only on the right side of the receiver ring. No other markings are present on the rifle. Complete with a long range dial sight on the left side of the stock. The bolt cocking piece is also a safety device. It can be turned left and right and is marked accordingly, "Safe" and "Fire". Two sling swivels. Bayonet lug on the nosecap. One barrel band. Brass buttplate with a trap. Overall length: 46 inch. Barrel length: 25.5 inch. CONDITION: The rifle would be in excellent condition, if not for missing (uninstalled) parts. 96% of original blue finish is still remaining on metal. The balance is in white mixed with some light patina. Some finish is turning to brownish color. Most of the wear is on the magazine, barrel band and nosecap. The SMLE magazine shows some roughness and some handling marks. The SMLE nosecap shows two small spots of pitting. Nice, smooth stock in original finish, with some handling marks and light dings. No cracks in wood. All the markings on metal are clearly visible. Excellent+ bore with strong and shiny rifling. Crisp action. All the internal parts of the rifle are in excellent condition, with no visible wear. One of the kind Savage experimental bolt action rifle from the time of the Great War! Serial# 97XX. Shipping is $30 in the continental U.S., actual shipping cost overseas. Personal checks will be held for 12 days or until cleared by the bank. For more information and additional pictures, please visit our web site. (mlr_0116)
Attachment 17914 - Attachment 17913 - Attachment 17916 - Attachment 17915
Doug
In the several times that this rifle has appeared, its a pity no one has posted any photos of a partial strip down. It would be interesting to see the barrel profile - if, indeed, its off a No1 or even a P14. I've never seen photos of the trigger guard attachment points, or the internals - how the SMLE mag (which wasn't on the rifle originally IIRC) is mated up with the 1920 action. I always wondered if there were any reason why the triggerguard was missing - other than that'd be the hardest part to craft, as everything else appears to be either factory parts or custom woodworking....
Looks like this one has come around on Gunborker again ... ;)
Savage Experimental Rifle (British SMLE style)
Regards,
Doug
Like a previous forumer said earlier, there wouldn't be just ONE of these............, contracts just don't work like that. And of the 50 or so, one would be in the PR. If it was actually TESTED, then one would (?) be at Warminster or at least the records would be............ But never say never
He's not giving up on the price either ....
Like Paul, I have been following these rifles for a number of years and based on information I found whilst researching my British WWI secondary weapons books I believe the most likely answer is as follows.
In February 1915 the War Office was approached by a Mr.Boon who claimed to represent a group of American industrialists interested in manufacturing rifles for the British army. After some discussions he was given a contract for as many rifles as could be delivered by December 1915 up to a maximum of 400,000. They were to be of SMLE Mark III configuration and complete with Pattern 1907 bayonet and scabbard, packed in regulation crates and to cost $30.00 each f.o.b. New York.
In April 1915 the War Office shipped ten new Mark III rifles to act as patterns to the consortium, now known as the Imperial Contracting Company. In the meantime British representatives in New York had been asked to look into the background of the company and its principals and it was soon discovered that they had no manufacturing facilities of their own. They intended having components made by a number of New England manufacturers and then rifles assembled at Hopkins and Allen. Captain Smyth-Piggot, the senior British inspector in the U.S. raised serious doubts about both the members of imperial and their ability to complete the contract. He wrote some scathing reports about both the company and the people and recommended cancellation.
Imperial had been hawking the contract around the New England arms manufacturers and had supplied pattern SMLEs to Savage, Stevens and Westinghouse. In May 1915 Remington formally complained to the War Office that Imperial’s efforts to find contractors was having a negative effect on their own Pattern ’14 contract and demanded that the Imperial contract be cancelled.
When Imperial requested an extension to their delivery contract to May 1916 this was all the War Office needed and cancelled the contract.
The foregoing is only a very brief outline of the events concerning Imperial but is enough to give an idea of the story. I have copies of most of the correspondence between the War Office and the solicitors acting for Imperial.
Now to the rifle in question. I have seen other close-up pictures and apart from the action and stock all other parts, sights, nosecap etc., are Enfield made and marked. I do not know whether the barrel is Enfield or Savage though. I have always thought this rifle was made by Savage as a prototype and used the major sub assemblies from the pattern SMLE supplied to them for ease and speed. However, the comments about the date of the Savage action have now cast a spanner into those ideas!
There is no similar rifle in the Pattern Room collection (Now the Nation Firearms Centre).
Is it possible that the action could have been prototyped in 1915/16?
Regards
TonyE
I would have thought this was a WWI effort, but I suppose it could have been WWII, as the rifle situation was even more dire in 1940/41 than it was in 1914-16.
A non-starter from the get-go IMO, as the WD would never allow a Mauser action to be fitted up like an SMLE lest the troops make unfavourable comparisons! My instincts tell me this is why the P14 was shuffled around, usually in second line service, and sneered at by such as Maj. Reynolds as "the rather rough American P14".
I supose he never saw a Maltby or Fazackerly No4 from before 1944!
The long range sights and wood inletted for a magazine cutoff also suggest 1914/15 to me. But then they did put a cutoff on the first No4s too....
The No4 mag is probably just stuck in for looks by the seller. In either case, an SMLE mag would have been fitted.
I agree with TonyE - in fact Imperial entered into an arrangement with Hopkins & Allen to produce the Enfield rifles. Factory expansions were begun and pretty far along when the British gov't cancelled the contract for the Enfields leaving H&A in a bad spot, until the Belgians came along. The new book "Allied Rifle Contracts in America" has full story- which BTW TonyE had no small part.
There was a Savage rifle made on a similar action that resembled an '03 Springfield. It is my understanding that the action used in this prototype rifle eventually evolved into the 1920 sporting rifle.
This photo is from Otteson's book "The Bolt Action", vol.2. It shows the Springfieldish prototype, along with a 1920 sporting rifle. The sporter was derived from the military; military action was 1 1/2" longer. Note that the initial patent dates are during WWI.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../12/0013-1.jpg
I suspect that the SMLEish version was developed about the same time. Probably these were company projects, not ones solicited by any government agency.
The Pedersen device for the Springfield is well known. There were also protoytpes for the Mosin Nagant and the SMLE; don't know about the P'14 and M1917.
don't know about the Pederson Device for the SMLE. I did see a Mosin-Nagant and US M1917 Pederson years ago at Peter Cardonnes (spelling?). Don't know if they were legit-they looked good.
Forty or so years ago a friend was in the Canadian War Museum, doing some research. He saw the Pedersen SMLE prototype. They had no idea what it was. I have no idea about where it is now.
Wm. B. Edwards owned the MN Pedersen at one time. There were photos published of it at a range.