Help with Identification and possibly value ...

Hello, I am new, so bear with me please!!!

I inherited, from my Dad, a WWII, Korea, and Vietnam Vet...yes 3 wars..pretty proud of that.. a rifle, presumably a sniper weapon. This rifle is marked Remington 03A3 and has an M82 scope with Redfield mounts. The serial number is Z4000946. From what my brother has told me, this was "procured" by dear old Dad, during either WWII or Korea. It is in dandy shape, and I was just wondering about the history of this weapon, and if it may be worth anything. Any info anyone may have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks and Happy Holidays to all!!!

Sounds like "dear old dad" stole the rifle from the US government. At any rate it is a highly sought after treasure if original. Were it me, I would report the rifle to the Army as having been left to me by my father and get a clean bill of health. If you want a unbiased assessment then you need to post pictures and details as to the crosshair, serial number, mounts and any other info. The Z prefix was used for the Remington sniper 03A4 and the M82 scope is rare and very expensive. Regards, Rick.

We really need to see pics of this one.

Although the serial number sounds OK, look and see if the markings on the receiver are "split" - the serial number on one side and the manufacture and model markings on the other to tell for sure. If so, it is a M1903A4 sniper rifle.

I agree with the rest - pictures and further information are a must.

If he can read the serial # than they would almost have to be split, right? And with that particular serial #, it would have to be an A4, right?

Lots of equipment was "liberated' by troops. Also note the US Army sold lots of equipment for near nothing after WWII. I am not so sure I would go down to an Army base and try to straighten out a 50 year question. No answer. Remember, lots of stuff was bought and paid for-decades ago. Keep it, but do watch your storey telling.

Baker the "Z" series M1903A4 sniper rifles came about as a result of an error. Ordnance issued two orders for A4's. The serial number block issued to Remington for the second order was 4,000,001 to 4,015,000. Meanwhile, on the otherside of the Remington plant they are going great guns cranking out around 60,000 03-A3's per month. Inadvertently the serial numbers used on the standard A3's ran into the block assigned to the second order of A4's. By the time anyone realized the mistake just short of 3,000 A4 receivers had been made (out of 8,365 ordered). Since the A3's were most likely assembled, packed and shipped out the door Remington fell back on the standard procedure for dealing with duplicate serial numbers. They added a leading "Z" to each of the 3,000 a4 serial numbers.

Ordnance then assigned a new block of serial numbers starting at 4,992,001 for the remainder of 03-A3 and 03A4 production. However, only the balance of the 2nd A4 order was to use any of the numbers in this third block as 03-A3 production and a planned third order of 03-A4's (another 25,000~ rifles) were cancelled in February of 1944.

A4's have gotten quite valuable in recent years. While the M82 was not used on original production it was authorized for use in 1956 and there are anecdotal reports of it having been used in the Korean War.

The principal determining factor in establishing the value is the degree of originality followed by the overall condition. I will send you some criteria via email and give you my best guess if you like.

Over the last 40 or 50 years the government has released A4's through various sales outlets. At this point any remaining in its hands are more than likely in museums or in a dusty corner of an army base.

Regards,

Jim

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Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

Lots of equipment was "liberated' by troops. Also note the US Army sold lots of equipment for near nothing after WWII. I am not so sure I would go down to an Army base and try to straighten out a 50 year question. No answer. Remember, lots of stuff was bought and paid for-decades ago. Keep it, but do watch your storey telling.

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Agreed. let me expound....I would write a letter to the ATF and just explain the rifle was left to him by by his father and would like to document that he is the legal owner and have it registered in his name. Down the road, the legality becomes moot as the son is the legal owner. Might save some grief down the road when he dies and it's left to the heirs. Regards, Rick.

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Originally Posted by JGaynor

Remington fell back on the standard procedure for dealing with duplicate serial numbers. They added a leading "Z" to each of the 3,000 a4 serial numbers.

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Please correct me if I am wrong, Jim, but wasn't that standardized shortly before the mishap?

Whatever you do, keep the BATF out of it as I see nothing that involves them. If Rhode Island has no registration on long guns, who would you register it with?

I would think that the statute of limitations would have run out on this long ago IF there was anything not above board with it. Not to mention the records.

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Originally Posted by Mike D

Please correct me if I am wrong, Jim, but wasn't that standardized shortly before the mishap?

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Mike on 10 Jan 43 ordnance Directed Remington to stop checking for duplicate S/n's as they were no longer interested.
On 20 July checking of S/N's was started again but the procedure called for the second digit of the S/N to changed to one or two digits higher.
(This practice seems complicatred to me and probably unworkable unless the duplication was caught right after the receiver was stamped.)
On 11 Aug 43 the practice of using the "Z" preix on duplicates was resumed.

So you are right the practice was resumed a month or two before the A4 receivers in the 4,000,000 range were stamped.
(note the dates and information comes from "The '03 Springfields", Clark Campbell 1971.)

Regards,

Jim

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Originally Posted by sakorick

Agreed. let me expound....I would write a letter to the ATF and just explain the rifle was left to him by by his father and would like to document that he is the legal owner and have it registered in his name. Down the road, the legality becomes moot as the son is the legal owner. Might save some grief down the road when he dies and it's left to the heirs. Regards, Rick.

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There is no national registration of firearms in the US of A! Nor, unless the rifle was was stolen and reported to CIVILIAN police would it be on the "stolen weapons" lists (NCIC).(? I can't for some reason remember the acronym right now!)

However, SRS might note it's status...

Do NOT under any circumstances alert ATF to anything. They will almost certainly assign this issue to a new Special Agent who will open up a case. It will be a training case and you will be a mouse in the hands of a cat. You will certainly end up losing the piece. Keep it and lay low.

In the US, to find if a firearm is "hot", just arrange a visit to your local law enforcement office. They can run it there, but don't just jump out of your car w/ the weapon in hand! Let 'em know what you want first.
Pawn shops also report weapons on a daily or weekly basis, but you'll have to pawn it or sell it to them first, generally. Regular gunshops generally can't run numbers for you, but I reckon it depends on the state.

BTW,AFAIK only the US Navy actively seizes obsolete equipment that was obtained improperly. I've been in the back lot of the Naval Air Museum a few times delivering aircraft or components, and got a good close look at several seized F4F Wildcats and such that were pulled from the water w/o permission. Navy got wind of such escapades, swooped in and took them away! Apparently, there is no statute of limitations for them.

Guys, think this one through. You walk into you copshop and tell them "I have a stolen gun". What's next? Say good bye to the firearm. This particular case involves a firearm most likey purchased from a PDO. Paperwork most likely gone the day of purchase. Then what? Think this one through.

The army doesn't give a damn what happened to that 65 year old rifle. Don't complicate the issue. It is yours now! It is a very desirable collector's piece and you should treasure it.

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Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

Guys, think this one through. You walk into you copshop and tell them "I have a stolen gun". What's next? Say good bye to the firearm. This particular case involves a firearm most likey purchased from a PDO. Paperwork most likely gone the day of purchase. Then what? Think this one through.

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Well, it happens a lot around here. 99% of the time, the worried party is informed that there's no problem! Mind you, what happens in the "People's Demokratik Republik of Kalifornia" may be different, but the police here understand that most old guns have no traceable background, so if it doesn't get flagged there's no drama from the Law! Just don't phrase your inquery quite so tactlessly...

And no, the Army doesn't care, just the Navy. (We raised that question back during the recovery of some P38's and a B17. Only the one P38 got back, though... Same lack of interest for some buried P40's)

The State of Caliornia has been going out to old guys with gun collections. Possible suicide watch-reported by a physician. State will seize all guns and destroy within 48 hours. They rush it so the family doesn't have time to get an injuction filed. Avoid the "help" they offer. This case involves a legal firearm almost certainly legally purchased years back. Treasure it.

...and welcome to our forum Bakermark65. :banghead:

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Originally Posted by cafdfw

...and welcome to our forum Bakermark65.

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Sorry about that mess, as well! I allowed myself to get sucked into what is likely a completely irrelavent discussion vis. your situation. Enjoy your rifle and don't worry.

I sent Bakermark65 a PM and hope he reads it. Maybe he'll come back, but most likely he won't,
I received no reply from him.

I know (hope) that nobody here ever means anything intentionally hurtful or insulting. Sometimes things are written without thinking how they actually sound.
Without voice inflection involved, comments can look very insulting without that intent. The silly looking 'emoticons' we use can help very much at times to convey actual meaning.

Sometimes written comments (especially in a forum environment) come off as rude, insulting, and even intimidating when it's not really intended. (?)
I'm not sure here myself.

Regardless, It wasn't a very good response to his first post here, and now I'm pretty sure he's even afraid to post anything on top of having his father's integrity questioned.

If his father was a career soldier and vet of three wars he has every right to be proud of his father. He should have been commended on his father's service -
We all know that there are many thousands of 'bring backs' of this vintage, and they were brought back by a myriad of means, and the government wrote them off long ago.
They didn't keep records, and after they were disposed of as obsolete they were not tracked at all. They were surplus like aircraft, jeeps, etc and, they were junked or sold for pennies on the dollar; and that was that. It's history.

I would have loved to have heard more about his father's service. I would have really liked to have seen the rifle too, but I can understand why he would be reluctant to even want to post anything now. There are experts here who could have informed him probably better than he could have found anywhere.

It's a real pity and we all may have missed out.

JMO
~ Harlan

Thanks, and I did receive your PM. I have no worries, and I take no offense by anything anyone wrote. You know what they say about opinions....everybody has one!!

I am quite certain that "dear old dad" didn't steal anything, and I was merely expounding on what my brother had said. I will try and get some pics of things up here as soon as I figure out how all this works.

I wish everybody a happy holiday!

Who cares how Dear old Dad got it. He more than earned it. A greatful nation should allow its service men to retain their firearms (ala the Swiss) as an act of gratitude and to have a ready reserve.

I hope you can get some good information from the knowledgeable people on the forum regarding your rifle.

It's great to see you back! I think you'll really enjoy this site, and especially this forum.
The guys here are great people.

I'm looking forward to photos of you rifle and more info about your dad.

If you need any help posting photos don't hesitate to ask.
(It's actually easy to do once you figure out just where you need to 'click') - ;)

Here's a link to a tutorial that 'Badger' (Doug, our site owner) put together:
How do I upload or post images on MILSURPS.COM?

Also, the link in the area above the posts in the 'sticky' area that 'Rick the Librarian' put together about how to take gun photos is very helpful
Firearms photography

Best regards,
~Harlan

After some observation and perusing, it looks as if the stock of my rifle may have been "sporterized". I had seen many posts in regards to this, but after some specific searching, I now know what this means. The stock seems to have been abbreviated right before the first band on the barrel, so there is a long look to the barrel. I still plan to post some pics of the rifle, but I am guessing now that the rifle has little to no value due to it's stock being hacked off and apparently sanded, there are no markings on it that I can see.

I guess it really doesn't matter though, I would probaby like to use it as a shooter at the gun club anyway!!

As soon as lighting allows, I will get some pics up.

Sportered stocks are common, and an easy fix (if you want to spend the money). If the metal is still original, you still have alot of value.

An original A4 stock is very expensive ($500-800), depending, but would be worth it in the long run, if the rest of the gun is in nice original shape.

Really looking forward to some photos!

Bakermark65, welcome to the funhouse! :madsmile: :D Looking forward to seeing pics of your rifle!:cool:

I guess I'm the bad guy here but it ticks me off when I read "From what my brother has told me, this was "procured" by dear old Dad, during either WWII or Korea". My Dad flew 52 missions in the South Pacific during WWII was shot down and earned the DFC. I flew helicopter gunships in RVN for two years and earned 27 Air medals, 2 Bronze Stars one for valor and flew over 1800 combat hours. Never for one second did I ever consider "procuring" any government property and neither did my father. I would like to think that the rifle in question was not stolen and perhaps acquired legally and the brother's story is just a story. His devotion to our country is what matters and I am grateful to his sacrifice and service. I hope I have made my thoughts clear on this subject and consider the matter at rest. I would also like to see pictures of the rifle as it is a national treasure. Finally, IMHO, restoration is worth the effort irrespective of the cost. Regards, Rick.


Read more: Help with Identification and possibly value ...
Military Surplus Collectors Forums

There are no good guys or bad guys here. We all have the right to our opinions. This has been both interesting and entertaining. I really would like to see a photo or two. Given the family history a full re-build is only fair. Good luck on the project.

For the record, I don't think you are the bad guy..period. I never said that and want to make that clear. I am unsure of the means by which my dad got the rifle, but IMHO I don't think it was stolen. My brother's embellishment, and my choice of words was not the best,...hey, I'm human. I apologize for ticking you off in any way. I commend both you and your Dad for your meritorious service, as I do my father. A little history, of what I know of my father's service, that I am extremely proud of....My Dad enlisted in the army during WWII. He served in the infantry, and landed somewhere in France as a glider troop...quite a harrowing feat. After fighting in Europe, and the end of the war, he was part of the occupying force in Japan for many years. Afterwards, he returned home and went into the National Guard until before the Korea, when he went back to active service. He served in Korea, and later in Vietnam, first as a military advisor, then an artillery commander. Upon returning after several tours in Vietnam, he was assigned to ARADCOM, and later served as Deputy IG for the ARADCOM in CONUS, until retirement in 1972. The list of medals that Dad earned is quite long, including several Purple Hearts, Legion of Merit, Bronze and Silver Stars. He joined the Army as a Private, and retired as a Colonel, never even having finished high school. I also commend my Mom for raising 5 kids while Dad was away for years fighting for the freedoms that we all enjoy daily.

On a side note, many years after retirement, Dad went back to school on the GI Bill, and to earn a bachelors degree. There was one catch...he hadn't received a high school diploma, so had to complete a GED course before officially graduating from college!!!

I certainly didn't mean to cause a ruckus on this forum for sure, and it was quite unexpected. As I have stated, I will post pics as soon as I can. My camera isn't the best, but I think the lighting is the biggest issue. I appreciate the advice on the rifle, and possible restoration. After posting pics, maybe there will be some more insight.

Everybody on this forum seems to bring some knowledge and experience, and for that I am grateful.

Once again Rick, I bear no hard feelings towards you or anything you have said. You, as a decorated veteran, have the right to be passionate about your service and that of your Dad's. I certainly didn't intend to diminish the credibility of my father's honorable service to our country, and should have chosen my words more wisely. To some he may have been a war hero...but to me he was MY hero.

Thanks for straightening me out on that one!!

Mark

Okay, so I have some pics, and I'm going to try and upload them now.....if I screw up, you'll certainly know!!! Sorry about the dust, I need to wipe the rifle off next time...;)

Mark, thanks for posting the pictures of your rifle.

As you are aware at sometime in the past it was sporterized.

The stock does not look like an A4 stock to me. Are there any extra rifle stocks in your family's treasures? A couple of things about the one on the rifle that just don't seem quite right. If the original is still kicking around somewhere about 80% of the restoration effort will be taken care of.

The barrel and possibly the receiver appear to have been polished and cold blued. There are several people who can refinish (parkerize) the metal parts but i would start with our own chuckindenver. He has done these before and knows what he is doing.

For parts you will need the barrelguard, bayonet lug band, and the front and rear barrel bands. Good sources for blued versions are:

1903 & 1903 A3 Collector Rifle stocks or,

http://www.bill.ricca.com

If you need a stock that will be tougher. An original A4 stock will be very hard to find. About the best you will be able to do will be 1. A NOS M1903A1 ("C" or Scant) that you will have to modify for the bolt handle or 2. a modern reproduction from SARCO or one of the other suppliers.

Regards,

Jim

PS: you will also need the retaining ring for the barrelguard.

Bakermark65 - You have no reason to apologize for anything! It's kinda sad that your first thread is a classic example of how strong opinions can be formed from just reading words, which can NOT portray their true meaning without being heard or seen.

The metal on the rifle has clearly been polished, especially the barrel. The stock is not original. The scope, although produced late WWII, is correct for Korean War era, but not the original. Not saying it doesn't have value, but...

Finding a real A4 stock and refinishing the metal will not be worth it to me. After spending alot of money on a "restoration" it will still never be "original", and you could never go back to "the way it was when Dad had it".

If you want to put the rifle back close to military configuration, buy a repro A4 C-stock, handguard, and the bands to go with it. Or you could buy a WWII era C-stock and make the bolt notch yourself. Your lookin' at about $200 to do that, and you won't be permanately changing anything.

Enjoy it for what it is - a nice piece of WWII history, but more than that - memories of your Father. :thup:

Nice rifle. Thanks For sharing. Your Father is a True American. From a 22 Year Army Vet, Thanks to Your Father for Stepping Up and Doing his Duty ......

deleted some how I only got the first page initially

Thaine

As a follow up, and with help of some kind members, I purchased what was listed as a "Stock, Type C, Unissued" from Numrich. When it arrived, I was disappointed in the condition of the stock. There are some deep watermarks/stains in the wood, and presumably some leftover mold/mildew from those stains. When I called, the rep. stated that it was clearly stated in the description that there were watermarks, stains and light surface rust on the stock???

I didn't see it in the add, so I might just return it and continue a search unless someone might have some info on how to remove these blemishes. Once I try and fix the stock, I cannot return it.

I have posted some pics in another thread if anyone wants to take a look see:

Need a stock, anybody got one?

Thank,

Mark :ugh:

Mark you might want to take a look at this discussion of Sarco replacement stocks from the CMP board:
Sarco Stocks - CMP Forums

The stocks are not surplus or NOS but new manufacture. The comments are generally favorable.

There was a time when virtually everything that companies like Numrich and Sarco was original GI, much of it new. Years of steady demand has consumed the best stuff so now what are seeing is mainly the bottom of the barrel or reproductions. The reproductions can vary in quality but in this case the Sarco stocks seem to be fairly decent.

Regards,

jim

Thanks Jim!!