Mosin Dating Question

Hey guys,
I have a 1943 mosin nagant that i picked up a couole years back. Its in great condition (prob an arsenal rework at some point) with excellent bore, very shiney with no pitting or rust. All of the metal is good but it does have a small factory repair on the right hand side just behind the trigger. The rifle was made at the Izhevsk arsenal. The question I have about the rifle is about the serial number. All parts are marked #205. That is the bolt (Original-not a replacement with an engraving tool), reciever, butplate, stock, magazine and a few other misc. parts. My question is if it was the 205th weapon produced that year or if the russians did a series system like some other countries or some other means of numbering. Is it even possible to date it by the serial number? Thanks for any feedback.

Correc

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Originally Posted by mdrim13

All of the metal is good but it does have a small factory repair on the right hand side just behind the trigger.

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Correction: It semms that i forgot the word wood in my first post. The factory repair is in the wood right behind the trigger on the right hand side. Just to clairify.

The barrel should be stamped with the full serial number. A three digit number is unlikely. The Soviets also used Cyrillic letters in alphabetical order to designate the serial.

The norm is a six digit number preceeded by one or two Cyrillic letters and possibly followed by another letter. It would appear from looking at my rifles that the letters would be included in that six digits if it was a low number in that series. The record keeping of the Soviets and their serializing of their rifles is not up to the same standards as the western nations or at least what we have been allowed to see.

I have a rifle numbered in the 800's from 1942 but it has a couple of Cyrillic numbers in front of it. They only stamped the three digit number on the other parts. This particular rifle was a sniper rifle of which they made 53,000 that year. Unfortunately, when re-arsenaled, they rebuilt it as a standard 91/30. I bought it because it had the nicest finish of the war produced rifles on display. Found out why when I got it home. They inserted screws into the tapping holes and then polished the metal on the outside.

Your rifle would have been made in 1943 as that is what it is stamped. As for the month, no idea. They produced 3,400,000 of them that year although that number isn't set in stone.

there are a couple cyrillic letters in front of the serial number. they look something close to a n followed by something that looked like a c. any ideas?

Could probably tell you for sure with a photo of the serial but the "n" might correspond to our letter "P" and the "c" to our letter "S". This would be in the sound that they represent. Not sure on the order but they appear to be the 17th and 19th letters in their alphabet. The "C" is pretty straightforward but the "n" could be a "D", an "ee" or the "P", depends on exactly how it's shaped.

I don't speak or read Russian, so don't ask me details. I just have the info at the back of my Mosin-Nagant book.

I was looking at the letters in the back of my book as well. Its the one by Lapin. is yours the same?

Yes, same book. I don't know if there are others out there or not. Probably but this one is nice for my purposes. I'm not planning to be a serious collector. I have three. A prewar Tula, a wartime Izhevsk which turned out to be an ex-sniper and a Hex Tula. I want to get a 44 yet but haven't seen one at a decent price yet.

i just found one 3 days ago. its a numbers matching rifle from Izhevsk dated 1944. the wood is nice as is the metal. it was reworked long ago and then must have been sold to Poland at some point. its covered in all sorts of polish acceptance marks. its an overall nice rifle though and its good enough for me haha.

They are kind of addicting once you get one. I personally think they are one of the ugliest, simplest rifles I've ever seen. Some have been downright crappy condition wise but overall, the recent imports have been in excellent shape. I had avoided them for years because everyone I picked up seemed to be falling apart. The odd thing is, I haven't seen many in this poor condition recently.

If I found one in really, REALLY nice shape, I'd probably pick it up but then would probably sell one of the others. All three of mine have matching numbers but I know the bolt on the sniper was replaced with a straight handle. Two have brass fittings on the wood. One even has the matching serial numbered bayonet.

And for less than $100 each, it's really hard to beat.

As far as your original question, you cannot date a mosin by its serial number. Many believe the numbers were just put there in order to make certain that all the tolerances were within spec as the rifle was assembled originally. After that, it was just to keep track of parts in a relative fashion. To date it you must follow the stamped year. The year stamp on the receiver is almost always followed by the "n" looking symbol. This symbol stand for "God" and also means "year". As far as the "c" symbol it is a special designation for the barrel "quality" and really doesnt mean much. There is no record for what the barrel quality designations actually meant, whether for accuracy, or type of metal, ect.
If your rifle has a star shape stamped on the receiver it was manufactured in the Ischvek arsenal and if it has a triangle with an arrow inside of it, it was manufactured in the Tula arsenal.
On many of the re-arsenaled Mosins, the original year is completely stricken through and the new year is stamped in place of it. On most of the Tula re-arsenaled firearms the original year stamp is left un-molested and a "/" is placed after it with only the last two numbers of the year stamped. It would look like this "1942r/53" for example, this would mean original manufacture was in 1942 with a re-arsenal in 1953. the little "r" or "n" is the symbol meaning "year" (technical translation is "year of our God" ie-A.D.).
Well i hope that that this helps you a little. Goodluck.

On a side note- If you ever wish to help that Mosin out and get a bit tighter groups I strongly suggest this sight. The one thing he misses out on is how strongly corking your barrel helps. I will also post a link for that as well. After floating my barrel and corking it i am achieving 1 1/16 inch 5 round groups at 100 yards. Im extremly happy with that. Seeing as how i bought the rifle for $89.00. :) Good luck.

Guns and My Other Hobbies: Accurizing the Mosin Nagant

and for corking--http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu63.htm

info for general accurizing--http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=529

Glass bedding and lots of info--http://1-800-magic.blogspot.com/2010/08/how-to-make-sniper-rifle-part-5.html

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Originally Posted by mbost

If your rifle has a star shape stamped on the receiver it was manufactured in the Ischvek arsenal and if it has a triangle with an arrow inside of it, it was manufactured in the Tula arsenal.

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Seems to me like you have this backward...I always thought the star was Tula and the triangle Ischvek

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Originally Posted by mdrim13

Seems to me like you have this backward...I always thought the star was Tula and the triangle Ischvek

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Backwards indeed.....some of the other information in that post is also inaccurate....

The second dates on double dated M91/30s indicate the date of transfer from the Army to the Ministry of Defence, not a refurb date. Double dated rifles are nearly always marked 'MO' - the 'Ministerstvo Oborony'.

Serial numbers ran consecutively for one year of production - then started all over again. Russian/Soviet rifles had serial numbers for all the same reasons every other firearms producing countries in the world put serial numbers on weapons - to keep track of inventory after production.

Assembly numbers were used to keep track of major parts during production. These are found on the barrel and receiver.

The 'r' does mean year, or god in Cyrillic, but does not relate to Anno Domini or that man with the big beard who lives in the clouds. Only Tula made barrels have the 'r'.

Most, if not ALL of the Soviet made M91/30s that are available to us today were refurbished in the 1970s, and are not marked so. We know this from looking at the paperwork that is found in the crates they come in. 1972 features highly apparently.

Well, thank you guys for correcting me. Ive been going only by the information ive been able to find. Pretty much all scattered about every where on the net and, mostly, in what books i can find on the Mosin. Im very sorry for any incorrect info. ill be sure to include these into the ever growing list of "crap that aint correct about the Mosin".

What I find myself wondering is whether the Soviets really did have a method to their madness or not. Were they keeping records or just pumping them out there as fast as they could to get them in the hands of the troops. If they made records, what happened to them. Is it the old paranoia they have that keeps them from releasing them or were they lost. Why would they de-sniper sniper rifles. So many questions and the answers just don't seem to be out there.

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Originally Posted by mbost

Well, thank you guys for correcting me. Ive been going only by the information ive been able to find. Pretty much all scattered about every where on the net and, mostly, in what books i can find on the Mosin. Im very sorry for any incorrect info. ill be sure to include these into the ever growing list of "crap that aint correct about the Mosin".

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Don't apologise - there is a lot of misleading, ambiguous, or just plain wrong information out there on these rifles - in books as well as on the internet - it can be hard trying to filter out the BS, and to get info from confirmed sources.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

What I find myself wondering is whether the Soviets really did have a method to their madness or not. Were they keeping records or just pumping them out there as fast as they could to get them in the hands of the troops. If they made records, what happened to them. Is it the old paranoia they have that keeps them from releasing them or were they lost. Why would they de-sniper sniper rifles. So many questions and the answers just don't seem to be out there.

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The records will be hidden in some archives somewhere - probably next to the Amber Room - and will no doubt never be available to us Western arms collectors. It surprises me that a Russian arms student hasn't got access (maybe even they aren't allowed?) to the records so some of the dodgy information out there can be cleared up. I think that all too often we look to Western books for accurate info, when perhaps we should be looking further afield.