Does anyone here know anything about XIIE1 conversion of the No. 5 Mk I? How can those be recognized and which parts were modified? I'm also happy about PM, if you don't want to post the differences in public.
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Does anyone here know anything about XIIE1 conversion of the No. 5 Mk I? How can those be recognized and which parts were modified? I'm also happy about PM, if you don't want to post the differences in public.
So if noone can tell me anything about this rifle, does anyone know what the marking "2OT" (or "20T", not sure) on Enfield rifles mean?
"20T" used to be a UK proof mark for a rifle proofed as .308W/7.62mmx51; it replaced the earlier "19T", and has now been itself dropped.
Nobody on this usually knowlegeable forum knows or has heard anything about this type of rifle indicates to me that ti's suspect. Maybe a few photographs might help one way or the other.
Sterling converted a handfull of No5 rifles to prove their conversion kits and had the kits available in reasonable quantity. But apart from kits sent out as samples to likely buyers, there were no real markets. David Howroyd the Engineering director of Sterling told me that by this time the need for a 7.62mm No5 had gone
see Bernd Rolff, "Im Dienste Ihrer Majestät", side. 57 and 58 XIIE1Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Pray tell, how exactly and where do we see Bernd Rolff
Thats quite a rare book among the English-language collecting community. Are you able to provide a scan or transcript of your reference (within copyright, of course), or a more detailed description of the rifle you are enquiring about?Quote:
Originally Posted by 750 WLA
I'm not sure anyone is aware of a prototype 7.62mm No5 rifle bearing the designation "XIIE1", if that is what you are inferring. Although Enfield is thought to have made one or two specimens of a 7.62mm No5, I don't think there is any record of these being given any sort of official model designation.
Commercial 7.62mm conversions by Sterling are relatively common, but these do not carry a military model number.
EDIT: Just a guess, but are you referring to the "X2E1"-stamped trials FAL magazine that was used in the Australian No6 rifle test-beds?
I did an Internet Google search and turned up with this book being sold on egun.de, which I assume is what he's referencing ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Im Dienste Ihrer Majestät / Bernd Rolff (click here)
I clicked on Google's English translation and it said this...
THE bible for collectors and friends of the English guns. Schutzumschlag ganz leicht berieben / Buch sehr guter Zustand. Dust jacket very slightly rubbed / book very good condition. Der Verkauf erfolgt unter Ausschluß jeglicher Gewährleistung. The sale is without any warranty.
I also searched for an on-line PDF version but didn't find any references ...
Finally, I did find a German auction house link to a reference of an XIIE1 marking, but the link itself appears dead ....
Hermann Historica - Internationales Auktionshaus für Antiken, Alte
Links an der Hülse bezeichnet "RIFLE 7.62 MM XIIE1", an der Laufwurzel "2OT". Vollständige originale Brünierung. Dunkle Nussholzschäftung, Kolbenkappe Gummi ...
Regards,
Doug
The auction page I mentioned earlier finally loaded and it appears to be offering for sale what is purported to be an Experimentalversion des Karabiners Lee-Enfield No. 5 Mk I "Jungle Carbine" im Kal..308, Typ-Bezeichnung "RIFLE 7.62 MM XIIE1"
Note: The auction pic posted above is HUGE. After you click on images to ENLARGE them, you may find they automatically size smaller in your browser's window making them harder to view. The auto sizing is your browser's way of keeping images entirely within the screen size you have set. Move your mouse pointer to the bottom center of the pic and you will see an options panel appear. There will be a small square box next to the large X, which will have a pointer arrow sticking out of it. If it's illuminated, it means the pic you're viewing can be enlarged, so click on this box and the pic will EXPAND and open to its normal size.Quote:
Los Nr.2120
Experimentalversion des Karabiners Lee-Enfield No. 5 Mk I "Jungle Carbine" im Kal..308, Typ-Bezeichnung "RIFLE 7.62 MM XIIE1",
spiegelblanker Lauf. Zehnschüssig. Klappdiopter. Mündungsfeuerdämpfer. Bajonetthalter. Links an der Hülse bezeichnet "RIFLE 7.62 MM XIIE1", an der Laufwurzel "2OT". Vollständige originale Brünierung. Dunkle Nussholzschäftung, Kolbenkappe Gummi. Meist unbekannte Rarität in neuwertiger Erhaltung. Länge 100 cm.
Einige wenige Karabiner No. 5 wurden Ende der 50er Jahre in Enfield auf das NATO-Kaliber .308 umgebaut. Diese Enfield-Konversion wurde aber nicht weiter verfolgt. Vgl. u.a. Rolff, Im Dienste Ihrer Majestät, S. 57 f. Erwerbsscheinpflichtig.
Zustand: I- Limit: 600 EURO
Attachment 18292
Regards,
Doug
I have copy of the book. Page 57 shows a picture of a No. 5 with a square cut .7.62mm magazine identifyed as an XIIE1 and a picture of a No. 5 with Sterling conversion. While my German is non existant--I find no further information other than a notation to its existence??? in the accompanying main body text.
The book is an 180 page outline of Skennerton's books in German. Nice pictures.
To stir the pot further, I have handled in Canada a No.5 made up in 7.62mm using a No.1 MkVI receiver that was purported to be one run up by Long Branch for an evaluation. I do trust the source.
Hmmmm.......
Nice example of a standard Ishy'd No5, that seems to have been turned into an "experimental 7.62mm trials No5 XIIE1"....... proofed only recently in UK....
A few of the other rifles in that batch look a bit ........ odd.....
Love the No4 Mk1/2 (T) bitsa with the un-numbered action and modern ringed stamps on the butt....
@Badger
Yes, that is the book
side 57
XIIE1 Rifle photo
side 58.
„Eine nicht genaue bekannte, aber sehr wahrscheinlich geringe Anzahl von Gewehren wurde in Enfield Ende der 50er Jahre auf das NATO Kaliber 308 umgebaut. Die 308 Variante des Gewehre ist sehr selten. Ebenso existieren Varianten des No5 die mit Sterling Konversationsatz auf das NATO Kaliber umgebaut worden sind.“
A not exact known, but a very low number of rifles No.5 was converted on the NATO calibre .308 in Enfield end of the 50´s. The .308 version the rifle No.5 is very rare. Also exist version´s of the No5 with Sterling Conv. converted to NATO calibre.
sorry for my bad english
Swen
The need for a 7.62mm NATO Jungle Carbine seems out of character. The No.5 rifle was no longer a service requirement after accuracy problems could not be rectified, some time before the introduction of the NATO round. Early Sterling conversions for the No.5 to the NATO round are not likely to have been allocated such a number. An 'X' prefix follow-on seems out of character too... X8E1 and X8E2 were test models of the Belgian FN FAL, I'm not aware of a 7.62mm X9, X10 or X11. Where were the conversions made, is there any indication on the markings?
I think we would need to see some image details of the 7.62mm No.5 X11E1, expecially close-ups of the markings, in order to venture any further opinions.
Merry Christmas to all,
Ian
I agree entirely with Ian on that. X11 is totally out of sequence as these relate to the Bren series.
In any case, an African or Pacific rim nation wishing to have, say, 1000 No5's converted would simply be given 1,000 No4's. Much the same as nations that requested Lanchester spares from Sterling were usually invited to send their needy Lanchesters to Sterling where they'd be destroyed and the wanting nation would be supplied with the same number of Sterlings fort nominal cost on an exchange basis. Knowing that they'd have to come back to Sterling for spares in the future (especially lucrative spare magazines) Portugal and Chile spring to mind as nations that did this.
We were FTR'ing zillions of No4's and 5's at our Base Workshops in the mid to late 60's and I never heard a murmur of a 7.62mm No4 although we knew that the 7.62mm No4 was on offer
This rifle was on eGun a couple of days ago. It was offered for a ´"buy now" price of something like 1250 euros, and has now gone*. I looked at it and was going to make an inquiry here. I did get a look at the markings on the buttstock socket**. It was indeed marked XIIe1.
Either there really is an Enfield variant of which Ian Skennerton and Peter Laidler have never heard (I classify that as "extremely unlikely") or there is a lonesome No. 5 with "creative" markings being passed around in Germany. As I have often remarked with regard to collector values - stamps are cheap!
*Must have been withdrawn, not sold. Articles that I have marked for observation are still visible for about 3 months after they have been sold.
**Maybe it was on the receiver L.H. I'm not sure.
Just a thought, but thinking seriously, if the example really is an ex Indian Ishapore variant of a No5, does anyone in their right mind think that the RSAF at Enfield would have gone out and obtained one of those when we were knee deep in them? Or ask the same thing about the L8's. Who's ever seen an L8 based on an old ex Indian Ishapore No4. No I haven't either!
You don't have to be Perry Mason to smell a rat here. That's why I kept the thread going at the beginning...................
Horrible thought!Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
Promo: you are in the same time zone as me. Slowly it dawns on me that your original query may have referred to the same eGun auction.
Did you buy this extremely questionable object? If so, the arguments presented in this thread are surely sufficient to return it to the seller and request your money back.
Patrick
If anyone wants a nice 7.62mm No5 rifle, then there are many ways to go about it. As I said some time ago, I machined an L4A4 Bren barrel down to No5 spec, for my friend who still shoots it. It'd be simple to do the same with any barrel on that basis. But while it's a good shootable No5 with cheap 7.62mm ammo, it's not a fake of anything
Patrick,
I had the chance to take this rifle into my own hands. The X11A1 markings are milled. As I'm more with the M1903's and American Enfields, I wasn't sure about it. But I opened this topic before the rifle appeared on EGun.
And yes, I'm in the same time zone - but just a bit to the right on the map, along with those skiing guys ;)
Just to add to what Paul said about Rolff's book...
One of the book's best features, I've found, is the collection of contemporary photographs, many from the Imperial War Museum, depicting servicemen of various eras, equipped with some rather interesting weapons. Found there are grandfathers in the Royal West Surrey Regiment armed with Martini Enfield Carbines sporting Pattern 1888 bayonets, Sherwood Foresters with Arisakas, and, what is probably the best reproduction, in a beautifully clear, two-page format, of the often-printed photo of the New Zealand sniper in the rubble of Monte Cassino, sighting through the scope of a No. 4 (T) ex-Trials rifle.
These photos alone are worth the price of admission.
Merry Christmas everyone!
Terry
Did anyone ever read a book titled 'The road to Rome' that showed a row of No4 rifles buried muzzle down at some roadside graves. One of which is a scopeless No4T. The chop for a sniper..............
OK lads, here it comes again!
Peter Laidler, Ian Skennerton, any recognized expert, please take a look at this link - is that a real Enfield product, or somebody's creative upgrading?
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=3160158
Perhaps the mystery can finally be settled this time?
Patrick
:wave:
That type of pantograph engraving appears on all sorts of "rare models" floating around UK....
No wonder I tell everyone I meet that this is the finest site for firearms information that exists.
The knowledge pool on this site is amazing.
I am not trying to hijack this thread, just have to give credit to the knowledgeable that post here.
So let me get this right. Post 1965 up to the early 70's or so, the UK MoD or the Ministry of Supply or some other agency decides that it'd be a good idea to see whether the No5 could be converted to 7.62mm. So they go out and but an Ishapore FTR'd No5 rifle to conduct their trials. Yes......., they go out and buy a clapped (?) Ishapore FTR'd rifle, knowing that we had vast stockpiles of the things in Ordnance stores................
Ok, they might have done............... But then, they decided to give it a ficticious X series to be getting on with. I know what X11 relates to and it's not a No5 conversion. But so that you don't think I am pulling the wool over your eves (.......... like the seller of this poure horse manure story.....). let me remind you that the X10 series was from 1959/60. So ask yourself, what were the Enfield factory experimentalor trials dept doing between 1060 and 1965? And it MUST have been 1965 because that's when the L8 magazine fitted here is codified to?
Some of you wise lads out there know that I have been sifting a load of the old trials paperwork files from the era and some have benefitted from that by snippets put up on this very forum. Indeed, I've even sent some of the declassified microfisches to the interested parties. But nowhere in these files have I ever seen anything that relates to an X11 No5 rifle.
On the other hand, I could be wrong. But if I had to offer an opinion to a Court, 'creative upgrading' isn't the phrase I'd be using. There will be a suitable phrase somewhere but I'll need to think about it!
Thanks Peter. I know you said basically the same before, but I thought it a good idea to let everybody see the pics.
Patrick
:wave:
Maybe someone who is cleverer than wot I is can amalgamate these two threads.
What is a bit sad really is that the clowns who just zip in and mark these things up don't realise that somewhere out there in forum land, there will be someone who KNOWS what the X11 programme was............... I mean....., come on!
The stock of the rifle from Herman Historica is Indian.
The rifles (200) were sold in Switzerland in the 80s. In this time he had lot of Indian Weapos (SMLE, FNHP and some 2A/2A1).
Are you saying that this rifle is an INDIAN X11 prototype.........................? I think not
I only say that a Swiss dealer sold them, the stock is Indian and the dealer had lot of other Indian weapons in this time. The FN-Pistols were made in India, and the SMLEs too. Some of the SMLEs werde made in the 70s. And the one I bought was a RFI No. 1 Mk. III built in 1913.
The rifle was proofed in UK within the last 15 years or so, and the engraving is identical to that on many other made-up rifles on the UK market. Many of the "interesting" Enfield rifles on Herman Historica have previously been seen doing the rounds of the UK trade....