L1A1 Problem

As a collector of British military rifles, some years back I acquired an L1A1 dated 1960 in extremely good condition. Sometime during its military life it appears to have been refurbished and has the later Maranyl nylon furniture.

Being somewhat of a purist with shooting the rifle as a low priority, I recently went to some trouble in sourcing original wooden furniture which I now wish to fit. However, in removing the butt I have run into a problem. Having previously owned a Belgian FAL, I thought I was familiar with the procedure and also possess a starting tool and that device for removing then reinserting the screw plug and return spring.

However, upon attempting to undo the screw plug I find it absolutely fast and I am unable to budge it in the slightest. I am somewhat nervous about applying excessive force and find myself wondering if there is something about the L1A1 setup which is unknown to me. I have exploded drawings of the L1A1 and can see no cause for the problem. Is anybody able to enlighten me and suggest a solution?

with the screw removed you should be able to insert a form of hook tool and pull the plug straight out. Sometimes burrs set up on the butt round the hole for the plug. (while the plug is still fitted) I usually used a sharp knife or chisel to remove these burrs leaving a slight chamfer, and the plug again should pull out.

Thanks for your reply Skiprat, but its the next stage of the process that has got me stumped. I have removed the plastic plug with no problem. It is the metal screw plug underneath that holds down the return spring which is giving me trouble.

with the correct tool (long rod with screw driver at the top) it "should" just unscrew......(try starting with a normal large flat screwdriver, just to get it started then when its moving return to the proper tool) there is nothing else to stop it .. If the return screw is seized in the return spring tube (I've had it happen a couple of times) the result is you will, with some effort, unscrew the whole return spring tube from the trigger Mech. housing.
at this point the butt will come off as required, now all you have to do is strip the recoil spring nut from the tube using a bench vice..

If you want your rifle to look like it did when it came out of the factory you will need to have it looking like this unfired 1961 Enfield made L1A1. :dancingbanana::dancingbanana::dancingbanana:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...61LHside-1.jpg

Skippy is dead right. The return spring screw does occasionally stick fast to the return spring tube so get a but brutal and just unscrew it. It WILL unscrew, even if it unscrews the return spring tube from the trigger mech housing. When you replace it, make sure that the start of the thread is chamfered and replaced with a good dollop of graphite grease.

Nice to see that L1A1 Kevin the Kiwi. Does it still have the original long gas cylinder, one piece firing pin and sharp edged cocking handle slide that would put two sharp cuts down the left side of your hand when you let the cocking handle go

Thanks, Skippy and Peter. I'll give the brutal approach a try!

BRUTAL!!!! " technical application of appropriate force" is the correct term!!!:madsmile:

Skippy and Tankie............... A querie.......... I was thinking about the jammed in return spring nut. I seem to remember that if it did jam up tight, say rusted in (the salty water from the swamps up in Queensland used to get down the tube and rust the nut to the tube as I remember.....) If you use the 'appropriate amount of technical force' and the return spring unscrews from the TMH (the trigger mech. housing to you heathens and pagan savages still out there in the colonies and antipodes), then for some reason, the bloody tube is then jammed up in the butt. It'll rotate OK but isn't there a collar that wont allow it to be pulled back and out.

I have this nagging feeling in the back of my head somewhere.........

as it happens I am sat with a butt less L38 (X8 E1 (BR)) the return spring tube is stepped slightly (it is the same diameter at each end, thinner in the middle) but I do not see any collar and cannot remember one on the L1A1.
With the plastic butts there was a habit of the inner filling reacting with rifle oil (or old age) and swelling/coming away from the outer ABS shell.
When this happened, even just to remove the butt from the rifle required more "application of technical force" and the small lip on the return spring tube removed a small amount of the butt filling.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Nice to see that L1A1 Kevin the Kiwi. Does it still have the original long gas cylinder, one piece firing pin and sharp edged cocking handle slide that would put two sharp cuts down the left side of your hand when you let the cocking handle go

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The rifle was one of 10 sent to New Zealand as being a member of the Rifle Steering Committee (RSC) as examples of the new pattern 'Mark 2' L1A1 rifle. Incorporated a number of changes and improvements, including the following:

Latest dimensional alterations to the Barrel & Breech Block
2-Piece Firing Pin and new Spring
Modified Handguards (to accommodate the new Carrying Handle Retaining Screw)
Mk. 2 Gas Cylinder (Shortened)
Mk. 2 Carrying Handle Retaining Screw (Lengthened)
Mk. 2 Carrying handle
Mk. 2 Body Locking Catch
Mk. 2 Bold Holding Open Device
Mk. 2 Rifle Sling Loop
Mk. 2 Butt Stock
Other dimensional changes an alteration throughout in accordance with the RSC.

The rifles were kept with RNZEME as 'Control Rifles' till the L1A1 was withdrawn from service.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Skippy and Tankie............... A querie.......... I was thinking about the jammed in return spring nut. I seem to remember that if it did jam up tight, say rusted in (the salty water from the swamps up in Queensland used to get down the tube and rust the nut to the tube as I remember.....) If you use the 'appropriate amount of technical force' and the return spring unscrews from the TMH (the trigger mech. housing to you heathens and pagan savages still out there in the colonies and antipodes), then for some reason, the bloody tube is then jammed up in the butt. It'll rotate OK but isn't there a collar that wont allow it to be pulled back and out.

I have this nagging feeling in the back of my head somewhere.........

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Pete, I dont remember that difficulty! I also have had the tubes unscrew & come out of the TMH. I dont remember NOT being able to extract the tube from any butts though? You will have to check a spare Rtn Spring Tube with a wood butt from your spares Mate!....Im sure you may have a few?....

Skippy and Tankie, you have answered my querie. It's just that had a niggling thought in the back of my mind thats all. I seem to remember that the external thread of the TMH end of the return spring tube was the same as the internal thread at the butt plate end of the tube. It was a metric pitch/thread form over a diameter which seemed typical of these foreigners! Anyway, all have a nice weekend!

What was the difference between the original and 'Mk2' type butt that you mention Kev the Kiwi? Was it the body locking catch or lever? I remember the original levers were changed as and when because they had sharp stepped dome at the top that could cut your thumb whereas the later production version just had a rounded dome and the later still ones had a punched-out rounded dome. I have to say, and the others'll bear me out on this, but I don't remember the designers and MAG's (the Maintenance Advisory Groups) giving health, safety and creature comforts a great deal of consideration. They did spend a bit of time correcting, red lining and blue pencilling every spelling and grammatical error I made when I upgraded the L2A3 Sterling EMER as a silly project for someone!

Still no luck in undoing the screw plug. I have made an appointment to visit my friendly gunsmith for next Saturday. Perhaps his equipment will work better than mine. Picture of patient and spares attached.

Attachment 18771

Peter,

The original Mark 1 butt looked like the Australian Butt (and Canadian Mk 1) with the long comb on the top of the butt. This was modified (shortened) to reduce the chance of splitting. The butts have a ' 2 ' stamped on them as part of the markings.

The Mark 2 Body Locking Catch were the rounded type, no doubt changed not due to safety concerns but more likely it was cheaper to manufacture.

Really with the changes incorporated into the L1A1 rifle at this time it should of been renamed the L1A2, but that never happened. IF the lightweight rifle project managed to come into service it would of meant a new designation for sure. This project which was being worked on at the same time as the updates/upgrades for the rifle. The goal was to reduce the weight of the rifle as much as possible and to incorporate Aluminum replacement components such as the Top Cover and TMH. Although these weren't incorporated into Commonwealth production FN went on to produce lightweight rifles and components as production options.

Terry, maybe you're not being brutal enough............ In Australia ws had some really tight baxxxxxs where the sea/salt water had got in and rusted them during training for the Far East, up in the tidal mangrove swamp areas. We'd start the return spring tube nuts with the old 'BITS, stockbolt' (the old No4 stock bolt screwdriver) that was in our toolboxes. That, in the 'BRACE, Armourers' would turn anything.

In fact we used to use the BRACE, Armourers to turn the stubborn engines of Jumbo jets............ just joking, but yoyu get my drift!

Terry, as the butt is plastic. Why not leave is standing in a large Pot of Penitrating fluid? Then retry removing the screw after 24 hours.
I dont know what your stance is on the plastic furniture you have on the Rifle at present.
But plastic butts are readily available here in the UK. If your not too fussed about keeping this butt. WORST case secenario. Cut it off through the plastic CAREFULLY with a hacksaw!
I realise this sounds brutal, but if your not bothered, or wish to obtain a replacment butt. Then it cant be a problem, can it?
When removed, if needs be. Heat from a blowlamp could be played on the screw end of the return spring tube. This WILL definately break the corrosion between screw & tube & should effect removal.

Tankie's right. At this point it doesn't matter about the plastic butt if it won't come off. You will definitely have some rust to deal with and that's the more important thing right now. To me it would be anyway!

If the plastic butt matters, I undertstand that BDL is kinee deep in them! Cheaper than a new return spring tube I guess.....

Thanks all for your input. Much appreciated. I obviously wish to preserve the nylon butt if possible since from where I live it would be rather inconvenient to replace it.

The penetrating oil sounds a good idea, but what worries me somewhat is that this rifle is absolutely immaculate inside with no trace of rust anywhere.

I have arranged to visit my gunsmith friend this Saturday. He has specialisd equipment and I'll take it from there with the penetrating oil as a definite option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

If the plastic butt matters, I undertstand that BDL is kinee deep in them! Cheaper than a new return spring tube I guess.....

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BDL Pete? Bad Debts Limited?......Enlighten me please Sir!.............

The great man himself.......... Brian Dick Ltd of South Carolina.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The great man himself.......... Brian Dick Ltd of South Carolina.

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Gottcha! Cheers Mate!

Failure. I'm afraid. My gunsmith friend attempted to remove the return spring screw from my L1A1 and broke a tool in the process. The matter has also been discussed with an ex-Rhodesian armourer who is very familiar with the L1A1. Their combined opinion is that this part of the rifle has been assembled using loktite.

A final option is to make a tool out of hex steel that can be bolted onto the return spring screw and turned using the leverage of a suitable spanner or wrench. This will provide even more force than has been applied up to now. The risk here is that this method will break off the return spring tube .

I think, with great regret, that I'll have to stick to the marynal furniture now on my 1960 rifle.

If you have the spare parts available, just hacksaw through the offending butt and be done. It's extreme but you can then unscrew the tube from the lower and replace all to satisfaction. Otherwise, there's an attatchment for the propane torch that applies heat to parts but not flame. Anywhere that has torch kits should have it.

We'vbe probably been through this before but to be honest, if you want to replace the butt with a wooden one. just hacksaw the old butt off, leaving the return spring rod, nut, spring and plunger in place. THEN use heat to break down the locktite and unscrew the nut. Jeees, if you really want to keep the old plastic butt, get one from BDL or I'll send you one! But really and honestly, this isn't the problem it's being made out to be.................. unless I'm missing something. Any other comments Son, Skippy and Tankie. We've ALL had trouble. I've even had them run over but have still got them apart.

What you really need is one that's been run over on the firing point and has to be cut open with a hacksaw, on site, just so that it can be proved to be unloaded. Happened with an L85A2/SA80 not 3 weeks ago too!

[QUOTE=Peter Laidler;168346]We'vbe probably been through this before but to be honest, if you want to replace the butt with a wooden one. just hacksaw the old butt off, leaving the return spring rod, nut, spring and plunger in place. THEN use heat to break down the locktite and unscrew the nut. Jeees, if you really want to keep the old plastic butt, get one from BDL or I'll send you one! But really and honestly, this isn't the problem it's being made out to be.................. unless I'm missing something. Any other comments Son, Skippy and Tankie. We've ALL had trouble. I've even had them run over but have still got them apart.

Pete, Agreed, this subject HAS been covered before. I echo your comment re removal. Been there, done that Etc (MANY Times!) Another POSSIBILITY, would be to get a large screwdriver. One that the end tip fitted the slot WELL! Or File a slice of metal flatbar to the correct width & depth. Harden & Temper it & fit a good wood handle to the opposite end. Then, with the rifle TMH firmly held in a bench vice.If you have an assistant press down HARD against the return spring screw in the butt. YOU can fit a big adjustable spanner (F Wrench would be better!) to this flatbar & turn it. You MAY well unscrew the return spring tube from the Trig Mech Housing. This does NOT matter, as you then CAN apply heat to the tube alone when removed. To remove the end nut, then clean up & refit to the TMH. When refitting tube & nut, GREASE them to prevent this from Re-occuring & also prevent the ingress of Water to the inards & threads!......

Or better still, use that xxxxing great big screwdriver we used to call the 'BIT, screwdriver, stock bolt' That in a brace will definately unscrew it.

Thanks, Chaps. Your input is much appreciated and very informative. The present butt is virtually perfect and I'm most reluctant to destroy it. I shall make a suitable tool and try it in conjunction with heat if possible.