I would be interested in finding a L59A1 or L59A2 but am not sure if there are quite a bit of them to be found in Canada. Would anyone know a good place to start looking for one of these?
Thanks,
Jonathan
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I would be interested in finding a L59A1 or L59A2 but am not sure if there are quite a bit of them to be found in Canada. Would anyone know a good place to start looking for one of these?
Thanks,
Jonathan
You would have to advertise for one. They don't command such a following here . You could probably MAKE one easier. Just start with an inexpensive gun and go from there.
Collector's Source in Ontario might be a good starting point. I recall seeing one on their site, but I do not recall how long ago that was. I know Joe Salter has one, but it is in the U.S.
http://www.collectorssource.com/
http://www.joesalter.com/
Also SARCO has been known to have them. As far as making one, that may be harder than you think, what with the pantograph required, plus know what serial number range to put on it. I can't imagine faking a dummy rifle, but whatever spins your gears. :lol:
Our L59 rifles retained their original serial numbers. The markings should be easy to reproduce. The original proofs are barred out and the words/letters DRILL RIFLE L59A1 are engraved onto the body side. Any jewellery shop with an engraver should be able to do that
On second thoughts Jockle, why don't you get your genuine L59 rifle and use as a pattern it to convert, say, 6 or so suitably trash rifles into L59 spec. These rifles seem to be quite rare now but are genuine Lee Enfields and even though they are DP/Training rifles, every collection deserves to have one up there with the best of them.
I never saw an L59 depreciate in price. I seem to recall that there were only 3,500 or so converted. There might have been a secondary batch but it'll have been small
I agree. Any idea where to get one in the UK Peter?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I don't know where to to get one as I'm not even remotely connected with the trade but you could try EFD or the other traders on this forum. But, here's a little whisper if you're living in the UK. Get one soonest, while they're cheapish, even if it means having it put on your FAC. Because the word has gone out that they will/maybe deemed to be non firearms (as opposed to deacts) by the proof house under the 'there are other means of....' wording. But don't quote me........... But once they're off ticket, they'll go ballistic.
Tangential to the thread, however, for those of you who may have missed it and are interested in the L59A1 DP rifle, here's an old announcement ... :)
With thanks to Advisory Panel member Peter Laidler, a new article has been added to the Technical Articles for Milsurp Collectors and Re-loaders (click here).
L59A1 DP Rifle (by Peter Laidler) (click here)
As Peter says …. "Putting my old teaching hat on and remembering the phrase that one picture describes a thousand words, here are a series of pictures showing the important points of what one of these mysterious ‘rifles’ embodies."
Regards,Quote:
Article Extract .....
That was a timely picture by tlvaughn (click here) of his selection of No4 rifles which included a shot of an official No4 DP rifle, known to us in the UK Military as the RIFLE, DRILL PURPOSE, L59A1. I expect that some of the wild and untamed colonials and antipodeans among the forumers have been at their wits end trying to decipher what we unwashed Brits have been chuntering on about during our recent discussions about an Enfield rifle that is incapable of firing anything, but is still a rifle…….called ‘……..an L59!’ The L59 was a downgraded rifle converted to a non firing, totally inert rifle for training use with Cadets (and not only Cadets I should add). Incidentally, numerically this is the last Lee Enfield. While there were 6 L59A2's, that should be looked upon as a sample run. That fact makes a genuine L59 a cheap but important item in any collection of Lee Enfields. …...
The left side of a typical L59A1 Drill Rifle. Notice the distinct, wide white bands on the butt and fore-end/handguard. This particular rifle had a blunted/rounded tip DP marked bayonet fitted too. There doesn’t appear to be any official EMER reference to DP No4 bayonets in the relevant EMER SA&MG V150 but this bayonet bears a label with the distinct red ‘S’ for serviceable which is lined through and now reads ‘…to EMER DP spec’. On the basis that if it is DP, it cannot be truly serviceable.
http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd.../L59%20001.jpg
(Click PIC to Enlarge)
Doug[/size]
For what it is worth, the only batch of L59s to enter the US, that I am aware of, is the ones brought in by Navy Arms when they imported the L39 and L42s. I was in the warehouse picking out two and was told that Val had sold all remaining L59s to a military school. That may explain why we don't see them that often. The only one I have seen for sale was two years ago and he wanted close to $400 if I remember. I remember thinking he was crazy at the time.
The L59's that I have both have a new serial number engraved on the side, below the pantographed L59A1.
The drill or skeletonized rifles are a local workshop production. It's not a matter of faking them. As Peter points out they could be done and I know of several that have been. I would say it's a better use of a lesser rifle that tearing it apart and canibalising for others. I don't think they should be particularly expensive, just a bit hard to find. Most guys don't care about them because they don't shoot. Making one isn't hard and no pantograph id required because they aren't a precision item. Just cut to show the mechanical workings and that's all. At best a bit of paint to high lite the cutaway portions.
Limpetmines pantographed 'new' serial number is in keeping with the EMER spec. But hardly a 'new' serial nunber Limpet.... it's just the all important last 4 of the original 10C 4312. Of course, if the original number is lost for some reason or another then another will be allocated. But there was no special batch for the L59, so a 'lost' number would be allocated from the usual SA83 Axxxx. Unlike the Skeletonised, which had a SKN-1234 type number allocated, even where the original might still be visible.
If you want to make a passable copy that will be worth it in the future BAR, then the engraved bodyside IS important. It's THIS that (virtually) make it the real McCoy as opposed to a garden shed bubba. No paint is used on an original DP to highlight the machining. The only bit of flashiness was that oin the early ones, the bolts were copper plated to a deptyh of .005". Good in practice but flawed in theory because if the bolt was a good fit originally, it became a NO fit after it was plated.
Don't forget that the DP's had to conform to service spec too (except for barrel gauging and viewing because they were blocked ahead of the chamber.
Good thread and a worthy rifle for any serious collector. Mine is based on a Mk2.
Onl;y 6 L59A2's (a current spec DP of the SMLE) were attempted but the project was a disaster and only 2 were completed
I got one also from Val Forgett when they came in. I know they disappeared quickly but did not realize they went to a military school. Guess we were lucky..
Thanks for the story on them Paul....
During their life, there was a shortage ('dues out' we called it....) of extractor springs until a batch was sourced commercially. As a stopgap, it was agreed that a short length of square cross section pliable rubber- the type used on catapaults - could be pushed into and through the extractor housing where the missing spring sat. It was cut flush and this cured the problems and so far as I am aware, it seemed to last for ages and allowed the extractyor to function properly with drill cartridges. There was even a part number for the rubber.
That's the answer if you ever see it and wonder what the hell a bit of rubber is doing in the extractor housing! Where there's a will, there's a way..
I submitted mine (informally) to the Proof House) and they would not consider it. I was advised to challenge the authorities to take me to court, as they could not possibly win with the weight of expert opinion against them. Not a wise move though.
Submit it again to London and ask the proofmaster to issue you with a letter as we (he and me) have discussed. He has the documentary papers relating to them and their exact status. Then ask for it to be removed frrom your FAC on the basis of what is said.
An L1A1 DP (L60A1) has already been deemed to be not a FA as defined. Not a deact, but not a firearm either
Now where to find a L60A1?
It looks like there are still some L59A1s in service, albeit, L59dand then deactivated to home office specs.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...L59A1png-1.jpg
Are 'we' encouraging the production of 'fakes' marked up to look like originals ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Whats the difference between this and those repro 32 scopes marked up as per originals ?
You mean, just like making up a good quality, useable No4T repro as I suggested and wrote up a year or so ago - and probably being read up and acted upon at this very moment too. Just so long as you dont sell it or the DP L59 on later as the real McCoy.
A second point is that even a real L59 is only ever going to be worth peanuts so your fake can only be worth the same. That's only my opinion. Just as it is only my opinion that being a true child from the Lee Enfield stable, it's worthy part of every serious collection.
On the interest side, does anyone disagree about it's status in any serious collection? I ask because the old Pattern Room asked us for one so we gave them a couple. And if it's good enough for them....................
Yes - but the difference is that you did not suggest on the 4T repro to copy every marking that was on an original 4T.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Making any 'repro' and marking it up as per original is going to lead (eventually) to it being sold as an original.
The 'maker' will know its a 'copy / repro' and maybe the next owner but eventually the 'message' will be lost and suddenly it will become original.
Surely as true collectors / guardians / lovers of Enfields we should ensure that if we do a 'copy / repro' it is marked in such a way as to be obvious.
Heres a question, I'm a serving RAF Armourer and the L59s were often converted at unit level to a current EMER and I also have access to a Taylor Hobson pantograph. So if i make a L59 conversion with all the correct makings, is it original or a copy?
Only to a point BP because the EMER was later amended so that those do-it-yourself early, what you might call 'UOR' conversions done at the unit were ordered to be sent straight to Command workshops to be re-done. This time, properly! Ask me one day about the original RAF spec DP's..............
But if you do make one BP, and to answer AdeE again, it's still only worth peanuts - as against a full-house No4T that's worth over a grand or so the last time I looked. If one was worth, say, a couple of hundred ££'s, then maybe there'd be grounds to question the validity of making up a good repro for your collection. In fact, I'd argue that the labour cost to make one (I think that the EMER labour time allowance was 5.3 man hours) would exceed its value. A bit like making up a repro Triumph Dolomite car, another marvel from Speke...... It's still only worth peanuts
The L59 is a drill rifle. In Canada it would fall upon the term deactivated rifle. To be legal, it must be rendered unfireable with welds, machine cuts and hardened steel pins. Nothing moving.
Personally I would like to have one as a example of another Lee Enfield and hopefully with the demise of the Long Gun Registry ownership would be a moot point very soon.
1. "Drill" in the case of an L59 means it being capable of: Holding, Loading, Aiming and Firing "Drills" (not just foot drill) and so the rifle MUST be able to chamber drill rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple_Leaf_Eh
2. But not generically in the UK because the L59 does not comply with Primary Legislation (1968 Firearms Act, as amended). Each individual L59 has to be defended as a deactivated firearm in its own right, or be further deactivated to the current specification. For example being rendered of not being capable of chambering a around.
3. See 1 plus the legislation allows for a moving bolt etc. in the current deactivation specification for that class of firearm.
---------- Post added at 11:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 AM ----------
I agree, that is the reason that I have an Ishapore Musket. I'd like an L59, even if (at least initially) I had to hold it on my Firearms Certificate. I just don't see them in the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by enfield303t
I'm lucky enough to have a L59 and it was much much cheaper than a complete original No.4. The conversion is a bit rough so it was obviously done in a base work shop! It has a Rifle Drill L59A1 marking with a 4 digit serial number which is a repetition of the last 4 digits of the original serial number on the wrist.
Don't confuse military training and civilian firearms legislation. To my knowledge, there are no drill rifles in the Canadian Forces with the exception of hard moulded rubber exercise rifles. These are true non guns which resemble the weight and balance of an issue C7 rifle, but are completely inert. All drills and handling training is conducted with issue small arms.
The police and firearms bureaucracy have a bizarre attitide towards replica firearms (illegal) and deactivated firearms (uncontrolled). The text at the bottom of Peter's thread restates the acceptible steps to deactivate a live firearm. And yes, there must be a hard steel pin through the receiver sidewall into and blocking the chamber to prevent chambering even a drill round.
Milsurps - L59A1 DP Rifle (by Peter Laidler)
I posted earlier on this forum about my L59A1, thinking I bought it from a friend when I bought a few other No. 4 from him. Looking thru some of my old copies of the Enfield Collector's Digest, I came upon an ad for Navy Arms, with some notations I made. They were selling at that time for $29.95, and I recalled that the price was hard to pass up, so I bought one. I should have bought several.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3a1f22_z-1.jpg