Wanted: Ideas on how to lock the magazine in place

Hi There!

I've recently become VERY interested in adding a Bren into my collection. I'm looking to go the semi-auto route and have found a number of builders in this area.

But one potential problem is that I live in California. As it is originally designed, the Bren triggers California's "assault weapon" laws. Specifically the pistol grip, detachable magazine, and flash hider.

Now, if I can somehow lock the magazine in place in such a way that requires the use of a tool to remove the magazine I can keep the pistol grip and flash hider.

I'd like to tap the collective wisdom of this board on potential ways to lock the magazine in place. First a couple of questions:

1) How does the Bren mag stay in place? Is it actually locked in place via a detent or other mechanism? In looking at pictures of Bren magazines it appears it is just using friction and gravity to stay in place. is that right?

2) How does the magazine release lever work? Again from pictures it appears to just push up on the magazine. Does the lever actually "release" the mag or just make it easier to pull out of the mag well?

3) Can I pull out the mag without the use of the lever?

Assuming that the magazine is actually locked in place, what are your thoughts on modifying the mechanism to require a "tool" to activate it?

1) What if the mag release lever was not installed? Could I just insert a steel rod to activate the mechanism whe needed?

2) The other thought would be to install a "cage" around the existing lever preventing me from using my fingers to activate the lever. A small slit in the cage would allow a small screwdriver or key to press down on the lever.

Any other thoughts? your comments and ideas would be greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks!

The mag is removed by pushing forward on a round lever at the back of the mag. If you nipped the loop off you would have to engage the catch some other way to release the mag.

Hi.

thanks for the response. I found this picture of the Bren mag well on gunbroker:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/01/957-1.jpg

Can somebody describe what is happening if I push the looped lever forward (towards the right in this pic)? Is the little steel rod on the bottom of the magwell moving forward or updward? How is that actually releasing the mag catch?

I guess if there is enough room I could cut the lever off and then fashion some kind of small receiver that would fit the now removable lever....?

The loop is moved forward and the bottom of the base of the catch( just follow the ring to the bottom)unlocks from the groove in the mag. The little steel rod in the pic is the ejector. It ejects down remember? If you removed the whole loop so there was no purchase on the catch, you would have to use a tool to remove it. Probably a screwdriver at the rear.(Forgive me Peter for this is blasphemy) It would be easy to do because you push the visible cross pin out and the catch comes out in your hand.

another thought. how much room is there when the magazine is inserted? Perhaps this is what browningautorifle meant, if I just cut off the lever and left say a 1/2" stub. It would be impossible for me to fit my finger into the magwell to activate the little stub. But would there be enough room to use a small plastic rod to push on that 1/2" stub?

There's a small space at the back of the catch. If you leave any lever, you will encounter an ATF agent with the strongest fingers you have ever seen and he will use the lever. And jail you.

ok I think I get what you mean! Basically:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../magwell-1.jpg

The flared parts are what hold the mag in place. By pressing the lever forward it retracts the "wings" to release the magazine. If I cut off the lever at the orange line then I could use a tool (like a small screwdriver) to push that area forward to achieve the same result.

In fact, I could probably use the same cut-off lever as my "tool" if it tapered it at the end to make it a little skinnier and thinner.

I know it's painful, but alas this is the only way to own one in california. The alternerative is to leave the mag release alone, but lose the pistol grip and flash hider. :(

Thanks for all of your help!!!!

That's the concept of ops. The cut of spot will be obvious when you have it in your hands. I'm guessing by your questions you don't currently have it. I'm talking about putting a flat tip behind the base of the mag catch, the edge closes to you when you're behind the gun. You'll see if you look at enough pics of the gun. You can't loose the pistol grip, it would be like taking the wheels off your car.

[QUOTE=beetle;154475]ok I think I get what you mean! Basically:

http://www.employees.org/~beetle/guns/magwell.jpg

The flared parts are what hold the mag in place. By pressing the lever forward it retracts the "wings" to release the magazine. If I cut off the lever at the orange line then I could use a tool (like a small screwdriver) to push that area forward to achieve the same result.

In fact, I could probably use the same cut-off lever as my "tool" if it tapered it at the end to make it a little skinnier and thinner.

I know it's painful, but alas this is the only way to own one in california. The alternerative is to leave the mag release alone, but lose the pistol grip and flash hider. :(

VERY Simple modifictaion here! If you cut off the mag retaining catch as shown by the Orange line in the photo. File if smooth where you have cut it off. Then Drill a hole DOWN into that catch from above
The hole that is left will allow you to insert a PIN PUNCH into it, & hey presto! The pin punch becomes an extention of the Mag Catch! Pull out the punch, & you CANNOT remove the mag without it!

I'll just cut to the quick......... I've just stripped one down and here's what to do, cutting out all of the waffle.
From inside the body, remove the SCREW, locking shoulder. Put it in the lathe and drill through it with a small, 2.5mm or so pilot hole. Replace it and using it as a guide, same drill, drill through the EJECTOR that is immediately above it and then into the CATCH, magazine that is above that.

Pilot holes all aligned, countersink (or counter bore) the pilot hole in the locking shoulder screw head.
Find suitable bolt (countersunk or allen bolt). Drill clearance hole for bolt through ejector. NOW tap/thread the hole in the magazine catch.
Insert magazine then insert bolt and screw up tight. This bolt will draw the rear of the magazine catch DOWNWARDS and therefore the nose of the catch forwards to positively LOCK the magazine in place.

No need to cut anything off because it ain't moving anywhere now

Easy....................

And tidy, and reversible to a degree.

Definately reversible BP. Even the hole in the locking shoulder screw is academic because it only holds the shoulder in place. No load on it at all because the load on firing is transferred directly to the body

Thanks everyone for the help! As you can tell I don't have one in front of me to examine. But it seems like all of the ideas presented here will work. I'll ask the builder to review this thread. Thanks again -- perhaps soon I'll have a Bren! :)

That's as may be KG, but that's what he asked and that's what I suggested! There ain't no simple answer because if the BATF man can remove it without a tool, then our man can expect some BIG time in the slammer!

as the magazine catch and ejector block can be removed from the gun without a tool by the small push out pin to the rear,,( A long winded way to remove a magazine) , would the authorities notice this? (I'm in the UK and dont know the full ins and outs of the law) I think the ejector block would need securing to the body of the gun.

Greetings:

Since I'm not a Californian... my knowledge of the requirements is a bit fuzzy... but if the intent is to have a functioning semi auto rifle/weapon... and California prohibits the detachable magazine in this scenario... if you fix the magazine in place how then do you charge it to then be able to fire the weapon... if you use a tool to remove the magazine so that it can be loaded then is it not by simple definition detachable? Although now just no longer quickly detachable... The California DOJ will probably want to evaluate this solution. Also... Is there a restriction on the number of rounds that can be loaded into such a magazine? If so, then your permanently attached version will also have to be restricted in capacity. Also... I agree that the modified catch would have to be permanently pinned in place - otherwise you could very quickly replace the modified magazine catch with an unaltered one and be using original magazines in short order. I suggest you loose the flash hider (cut it off in front of sight) and the pistol grip... then there would just be the issue of magazine capacity to worry about... presuming the CAL DOJ approves.

Hi Everyone.

some interesting conversation on this thread. In case people are interested let me clarify a bit.

The requirement I'm trying to meet is a California state law, not a federal law. Thus I wouldn't be dealing with the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobbaco, and Firearms) which is a Federal organization. Instead, it would be with the California DOJ (Department of Justice). Still violation of the state law would mean pretty harsh penalties, including imprisonment. So it's best to keep the firearm in a legal configuration ;)

While California has about 5 different laws related to Assault Weapons, only two of them we need to be concerned with. The other laws relate to items like Short Barreled Shotguns and .50 BMG rifles which are irrelevant to this scenario.

Essentially there are two paths I can take. The first path is to keep the detachable magazine, but lose the pistol grip and flash suppressor. This is certainly the easier approach, but it takes away much of the character of the Bren.

The second path (the one I'm pursuing) is to keep the pistol grip and flash suppresor but remove the ability to easily detach the magazine.

Here's where some of the confusion arises. Notice I said "easily detach the magazine" and not "permanently attached magazine". Fortunately California law defines an assault weapon by how easy it is to detach the magazine:

"detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required....

Thus I think all of the approaches in this thread will work. As long as it requires me to use a tool to remove the magazine I am good to go. Yes I could still remove the magazine by dissasembling the gun, but by the definition above that is not defined as "readily removed".

Thanks again for all of the feedback!

I Reitterate: What I discribed with regards to cutting off the mag catch & Drilling it for a Pin punch TOOL. THEN the retaining CROSS PIN that holds the Ejector & magazine catch assembly in place could be welded with a 'Blob' of weld deposit on the NON Headed side. Thus 'Premanantly' retaining the Modified catch that NEEDS a tool to remove a magazine! HOWEVER, in the event of a broken componant, the weld could be ground off, the parts removed for replacment or repair & the pin re -welded again. THUS, the Magazine is NOT 'Readily Removeable' without a tool. But IS, removable, AS PER YOUR LISTING REQUIREMENTS, that you wrote about earlier. Failing all else, MOVE HOUSE, from 'The Peoples Republic of California'!.......

I'm totally lost now................. Suggest a house move as suggested by Tankie!

Its good to see that the politicians running our country went to the same school as yours!!

tankhunter, i think your proposed solution is spot on. removing the mag catch lever and requiring a small tool (like a pin punch) to release the mag sounds like it hits the requirements perfectly. In fact, I even wonder if the second bit about welding the mag catch pin is even required. Per the law the magazine just cannot be "removed readily". By the same definition removal by disassembly of the action does not meet the requirements of "removed readily".

In any event I'm having the Bren sent to my local 07 FFL dealer. He will have to ensure compliance before transferring it to me. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brit plumber

Its good to see that the politicians running our country went to the same school as yours!!

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Yes, but you are forgetting that ours were in the 'Remidial Stream'!................................:)

Can I just chime in here.

I have 3 Brens, and I live here in California.

The solution is very simple.

1) Flash hider needs to be filled in. Mine was done by Wise Lite Arms and by the look of it , it was removed from the barrel, filled with a machinable metal compound , then drilled out to an oversize bore diameter completely filling the flash hider. (I'll post a picture , It'll be easier)

1A) Alternately the flash hider can just be cut off (Works with a Mk II barrel)

2) Conspicuous pistol grip: This is the easy bit. I obtained another grip, and fashioned it down to a wooden nub, that doesn't extend past the bottom of the trigger guard.

You can then have your detachable magazine.

This is my L4A3 with the prototype Pistol Grip.
I'll post pictures of the barrel shortly

http://photos.imageevent.com/gazzavc...e/DSCF0488.jpg

---------- Post added at 03:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------

Oh and Peter, it isn't the BATF you have to worry about. Its the CADOJ

BATF could care less about the ridiculous laws we have here in CA. They work the federal level stuff

It's the CA Dept of Justice folks who monitor stuff here.

I think that looks hideous. Altering the mag catch keeps it looking like a Bren. But on the other hand, we in Canada have our own set of problems.

Hideous yes. But it's a damn sight easier to screw the proper grip back on when shooting outside of CA, on wholly private property, or for a film or television rental.

It's also easier for your receiving FFL dealer to accept it as a "featureless" weapon. A lot of FFL's would take a look at a Bren and not want to touch it, for fear of getting themselves in trouble. I was one of the first blokes here in CA to figure out exactly what the law allows and bans.

We are working through the CALGUNS foundation to overturn some of these ridiculous laws through legal channels. With a bit of luck, we will get some good news soon !!

I know it's a bit pedantic Sergeant Major, but your L4 gun should have a Mk3 (lightweight gun) butt assembly

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I know it's a bit pedantic Sergeant Major, but your L4 gun should have a Mk3 (lightweight gun) butt assembly

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AND A MKI Adjustable Bipod on it!........

Although I can't see them properly the markings don't look like the markings we recognise. Ours always(?) went

GUNS M/C 7.62m/m L4AX
MG xx GA

with the old markings barred through with two lines

Peter,

I had been searching for one before I had this built, but unfortunately beggars can't be choosers !!

I had to go with what was available from the cut up wrecks we get over here. My bloke did a bang up job with the rebuild and the subsequent conversion to L4.

If you have a picture of the correct butt assembly , shoot me a picture, so as I know exactly what i'm looking for. :)

I have, since the picture was taken, fitted her with a Mk I bipod though, and with any luck, will soon have an additional L4 barrel !!

Here's a picture of the markings.

http://photos.imageevent.com/gazzavc...e/DSCF0489.jpg

Needs a MKI cocking handle assembly as well then to look correct. Also the MKI Bipod SHOULD have a gas shield integral with it.

Pic of MK4 butt -

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../mk4butt-1.jpg

MK4 butt assemblies and gas shields are still available.
Peter might make a comment regarding that not all L4A3's were fitted with a MKI cocking handle ?

ATB Kevin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Although I can't see them properly the markings don't look like the markings we recognise. Ours always(?) went

GUNS M/C 7.62m/m L4AX
MG xx GA

with the old markings barred through with two lines

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To illustrate -

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...L4A3pant-1.jpg

atb Kevin

Funny you should mention the cocking handles KG. It's correct that not all of the L4A3 and 5 guns (converted Mk2 and 2/1's) were fitted with the Mk1 type folding cocking handles. The ex Mk2/1's were of course. The parts list for them (more later.....) lists both types of cocking handle and states A/R (as required) next to each. It also has a letter (b) which indicates 'not codified'. From this, it seems as though some guns were fitted and others weren't. This would make sense I suppose as it wasn't a really important feature.

The A3 and 5 parts lists that I knew of in the big REME tech library were in fact Navy BR's (for Naval Books of Reference, similar to the Lanchester parts lists). We had the parts list there because we(the REME) were responsible for the Navy/Marines Bren LMG's. But because there were still Mk2 guns in the system anyway, if one came through with a defective Mk2 cocking handle you could always get another through the Ordnance system.

I don't think Tanikie was talking about the Mk2 gun gas shield on the body KG, but the gas blast shroud fitted to and an integral part the top of the modified bipod sleeve. To be honest, while this shroud of the L4 bipod did dampen the blast of the venting gas, it was useless at its primary role. Because as the gun tipped over to the left, the barrel just battered the thin steel shroud -- which allowed the gun to tip over even more. The old .303" bipod sleeve had a sling loop in the left side of the bipod sleeve which was far better.

If you watched blokes running with the L4 Brens, you could see the bipod swinging about like a bulldogs ba........., er...., testicles and every time the bipod swung to the left, the shroud got a bit more of a battering. How many and how often have you had to straighten them out Tankie and Skippy?

In Australia, our L4 guns didn't have the shrouds on the bipods but just retained the old original .303" sleeve.

Can we have a picture of an L4 and .303" bipod sleeve photo maestro KG? Preferably the left side of both to show how it SHOULD be and how it became

Yes indeed shroud,I said shield as this is what tankie called it ;) Anyway the shrouds are still available.
Although it does have a MK2 gas shield on it rather than the MK3 Bren/L4 gas shield/deflector on the body.
Will do some pics in a bit.

ATB Kevin

I'm suprised that the shroud is still available because it was never available as a separate part to us. The old bipod sleeves were machined down and the unfinished (but nearly finished.....) shroud was pressed on and brazed in place, then punched into shape while fitted.

Incidentally, it is this shroud that was responsible for a lot of damage to the big old L1 IIW night sight (the old late 70's Rank Pullin SS20 sight that went on the GPMG, LMG, L1A1 and Carl Gustav). The heavy night sight would lean over to the left under its own weight and if the bipod sleeve shroud was just a bit battered, , the gun would tip a bit tooooo far, past its PoB and over it'd go and crack the IIW OG lens. And at £200 a throw, it was zzzzing expensive.

I had a hand in this project but a modified GPMG bipod was 'adopted'. Mind you, the heavy sight would topple an L4 fitted with a Bren bipod sleeve but only if you pushed it first. It's all history now. In years and years to come, when this is all remote history, someone will be reading this and realise why some Brens are marked L4A8 and 9

Was the L4A8 (with GPMG legs ) more stable than the L1A1 with the GPMG legs fitted ?

While the subject of sights has been brought up (appologies in breaking into the thread) any idea how the MG3 AA sight was attached to the body in the pic below ?Unfortunatly the pic showing the fixed side is very poor.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3AAsight-1.jpg

ATB Kevin

Yes, when I said 'Shield' That was what I meant by shroud! You are quite correct. I have never seen shrouds available on thier own. They are USUALY seen as part of the assembly of a Bipod head & obvioulsy integral. I should imagine they were available at Field Wksp level for replacement by Brazing & subsequent rustproofing & painting. I have as Peter stated, Straightened out 'Quite a few' in Service!
As an Important point of interest. ANOTHER Feature of the shroud was to reduce the flame flash around the gas cylinder periphial holes. This reduced the 'Enemy' from getting too much of idea of where the Gunner may be sited. Obviously, they would see the Muzzle flash from the front end of the Flash Hider/Eliminator. But the F/E on the L4, the same as the SLR Rifle. did NOT completely 'Eliminate' that flash. This is confirmed in a lot of amendments in user handbooks where the term Flash 'Eliminator' is barred out. And the word 'Hider' inserted. Also, SOME of the exhausted gases were vented away & back towards the rear of the gun. If they had gone downwards, as SOME did on the Bren. It may well cause a small dust cloud to be thrown up & add to the difficulty of showing the gunners position as well. In reality, it was a small amount when this happend. BUT, every little helps as they say! & this was also a benifit of having a shroud fitted to the bipod head. As I undertand it, the L4A9 was developed by the simple addition of an IWS Bracket to the LHS as Peter has mentioned. This was originaly for the usage in the then Northern ireland troubles. Some sections carried LMGs when out on countryside patrols. & also set up in cover on VCPs (Vehicle Check Points) for nightime usage. For the possible event of an IRA vehicle running through the VCP after spraying the sited troops with fire! Also, it gave a patrol the facility to lay down heavy covering fire to enable the rest of the Riflemen in it. To execute a pincer movement on the perpetrator/s who had attempted to Ambush the Patrol. Amendment: Since I posted this info, A check of the relevant E.M.E.R has revealed that the Gas 'Shield' is correctly termed 'Cowel'!

Hello Gentlemen!

Just wanted to thank everyone again for their help on ideas to lock the magazine in place. I'll be picking up my California legal Bren later today! so excited :) Of course pics will be posted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beetle

Hello Gentlemen!

Just wanted to thank everyone again for their help on ideas to lock the magazine in place. I'll be picking up my California legal Bren later today! so excited :) Of course pics will be posted.

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Yes Beetle, It would be very nice to see some pics. ESPECIALY some of the internal parts to see how differ from Normal Issue ones! (The firing Mech Conversion)

ok just a couple of quick shots until I can take some more detailed pics. I need to learn how to disassemble the gun before I can get shots of firing mechanism.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/bren2s-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/bren3s-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/bren4s-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/bren5s-1.jpg

with little brother (No4 MkI)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/bren6s-1.jpg

and what we ended up doing for the magazine lock.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/bren7s-1.jpg


Anyone have pointers on bren disassembly?

Very nice!

Bren disassembly and a big slice of its history............. There's a book due out shortly that tells ALL. But for a good ready reckoner type book, I'd say get the Skennerton ID series

Hello Beetle, Ah, so you DID adopt my suggestion as to how to mod the Mag catch! Looks good dosent it? Simplicity itself, but with a Pin Punch 'Tool' inserted. Easy to opperate as well! Excellent stuff!
Another lucky Bugger gets to actually legaly own, & be able to SHOOT one!.........

Unbelieveably we could own semi auto Brens in the UK too until fairly recently. I'll have to get my tissues out as I'm apt to burst into tears............. You could own a live .303" Bren that had been converted to single shot fire but better still, you could own a Bren, totally free of ALL accountable and traceable paperwork too. Provided that the barrel was bored out so as to JUST remove any trace of the riflinbg, it was deemed to be a shotgun.

Some say that you had one of each and when the .......................... anyway, that was before about 1990- or so

had a few free moments to play around with the Bren and was able to separate the upper and lower half. I have to admit, I'm impressed by the design of the Bren -- pretty easy to strip. The more I study it the more I'm impressed by the thoughtful design.

anyways, I don't know how the original internal parts look, but here are a few of my modified semi auto. Is it enough for you experts to figure out how it was converted?

The part where the spring attaches to looks new to me.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...reni1JPG-1.jpg

The Bolt
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...reni2JPG-1.jpg

No "A" mode for me :(
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...reni3JPG-1.jpg

I got a couple of PMs asking who the builder was. I bought the gun from Rick @ SMG guns (SMG Guns). He'll either sell you a completed gun (like mine) or build one from your kit. I have no relationship to SMG, other than being a happy customer. Check out his FG42 project (nearing completion)

Let me know if any other pictures are desired.

It would APPEAR that the added block & the relieved area of the piston post. Indicate that this has become striker fired. The cut down butt slide welded in, would prevent a normal Buttslide from being inserted with a NON modified selector also. It appears that a pin has been inserted to block the selector from being pushed into the Automatic position. ( I used to grind off the bottom portion of the 'D' shaped lug. That went through the 'window' of the sear. This prevented auto fire & alo welded the head of the axis pins of the trigger & Sear. Thus preventing removal of the semi -modded componants) As it is now a closed breech fired weapon, Cartridge Head Space is even more critical! Nice conversion, & neat tidying up of the appearance finish. Well done you lucky begger!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Unbelieveably we could own semi auto Brens in the UK too until fairly recently. I'll have to get my tissues out as I'm apt to burst into tears............. You could own a live .303" Bren that had been converted to single shot fire but better still, you could own a Bren, totally free of ALL accountable and traceable paperwork too. Provided that the barrel was bored out so as to JUST remove any trace of the riflinbg, it was deemed to be a shotgun.

Some say that you had one of each and when the .......................... anyway, that was before about 1990- or so

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Yes Happy days indeed Peter! I also had a MKI, MKII, & a MKIII all smooth bored & trig mech moded for semi-auto fire. Each one had a box of mags as well & a Tripod also! I sold them all when the law changed with the introduction of the 1988 F/Arms Amendment Act. Which effectivley prevented the ownership of ANY semi-Auto weapon over the calibre of .22".
This act of course, has had no significant effect on Armed Crime & subseqently penalised law abiding shooters of course!......Better stop now, or I will be accused of getting too political!....:)

Had a little thought about what I suggested for your Mag locking conversion.
If it were effected as I discribed previously. IE: Cut the catch off & drill a hole into the lower half to take a pin punch TOOL.
When approved & installed. On the Range Etc, what you could also have to make the set up look more realistic, & asthetically give it the Original Look.
Is, the upper discarded half of the Mag Catch could also have a Hole drilled into the section area which was cut off the Original catch.
Then, a pin, long just long enough to seat & bottom in EACH hole drilled in Either half. Could be fashioned & ONE end be a few thou Thicker than the other. The THICKER half could be driven into the UPPER half of the catch. Thus permanantly seating it there.
Then, when required, the upper half could be seated on TOP of the Lower half installed on the gun. It works as a complete mag catch, BUT, is INSTANTLY removable in a Micro second if need be! (I wouldnt submit THIS option to the BATF approvers! BUT, it would work for your own purposes in Recreational shooting!) Just a thought on 'Tidying up' the conversion! :cheers: