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Hey all, first post here... I recently aquired my first M1 Carbine from an aquaintance of mine whose father carried it as one of the first Frogmen in WW2. Its absolutely pristine, 90% condition or better, easy.
The thing that stands out to me is it has no serial numbers on it at all, anywhere. It's a Standard Products manufactured weapon. My question is if this is a common occurence, and if not why do you suppose mine is this way? Thanks for any help guys, I appreciate it.
Could you show a photo of the area behind the rear sight?
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
It looks like it has been buffed away. That is not good.
If the serial # was removed, wouldn't there be a loss of metal in that area also?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulf
It looks like the serial number was buffed away and then the rifle was reblued. More pictures of the rifle would help.
It may be that the Navy vet brought it home and thought removing the serial number would keep the feds away.
Many 1911's and 1911A1's were defaced of their U.S. Property stamps.
I was at an auction back in Dec. looking at an M1A1 that had the serial number buffed away, neatly done but gone just the same.
frogm1, can you post some more pics of the Stan. Pro.?
.....Frank
Yes, it looks to have been buffed out then re-blued causing the purple hue. X-ray will show the number and then it could be re-struck but who could do that?
Rear sight is backward.
I recall WTMR having a serial number OK'd and put on a carbine... per BATF.
Regards,
Charlie-painter777
Sight on backwards, good catch Charlie.
Jim I beleive your right about the purple hue.
To bad the serial # was removed. It could be one of those under 2 mil. Would like to see whats inside.....Frank
Funny, I was just emailing him about it last week. It was a few years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
He calls it his lunchbox special. He did an article on it for the CC Club. It started as a Saginaw gun because you can see traces on the receiver. An S on the left and a G on the far right.
He told me if the gun has not be reported stolen or used in a crime that they can prove, BATF has to issue you a number. You just have to go in knowing what your rights are. He took in the bare receiver just in case. How could they prove stolen, no number. Or used in a crime, no barrel for bullet striations. Then made a second trip to show them he had put the new serial number on.
Nice to know we can do that if we come across such a gun.
Marcus said I could post these pictures.
Jim
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...unchbox2-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../luchbox-1.jpg
When Sportsters were the thing, for every K model made a Sportster was stolen, then you would bust the cases of the K, send them into HD and get a new set of Sportster cases, swap the parts and a legal bike emerges. When they were caught or like this thing, defaced, the DMV would issue you a new number and pop rivet it onto the case and frame. If you got one of these all it needed to do was pass stolen bike records and a lien sale and it was yours. Really too bad, I'll bet that SP is full of stuff. I want an SP!........ or a Quality.
thanks for your replies guys....
I don't know what to think about the suggestion that the serial number has been buffed out though. The only owner of this gun was the soldier it was issued to. He brought it home and its been unused ever since, and I can't believe he would alter his weapon like that.
Also, when I first obtained the rifle, I saw the uneven blueing also, and my father, who is a pretty good gunsmith, said that is probably due to inconsistencies in the metal causing it. So there appear to be some strange things about this rifle...
I will go take some more pics and post them in a minute
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g0249gth-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g0255ith-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...0257ebth-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g0256lth-1.jpg
if you guys want pics of a certain area of the rifle, let me know
Frog, I would always buy the gun and not the story. That refinish job tells a story of its own. If you look at the left side of the area in question, you will see two longitudanal mill marks still remain from the original manufacture process. The longitudanal mill marks also remain and are visible on the far right and left side of the area as you move down off the reblued area of the receiver. Compare that to the horizontal buff marks which run across the area. Add the change in angle of the rear slope area. It is obvious that the serial was buffed out. The letters of the "STD.PRO." have been struck/restruck post factory - the double strikes on the S and O give it away. Add to it the question of the rear sight mentioned above.
What you have here is one or two cases. First, either the person who sold it to you did not want the serial number to show and deliberately removed it. Or, and this is the direction I am leaning, at one time someone was attempting to turn that into a counterfeit presentation carbine in order to de-fraud an unknowing buyer. What they did was commit a felony.
Couple of points to reflect on... First, production carbines could not have been accepted by the government inspectors without a serial number - it is how they were counted and inventoried. There are other ways of telling if that carbine was accepted.
Second, if you really want to know, you may want to hook up with the Carbine Club. Other remaining markings on the receiver (such as inspector marks, etc) may help identify the approximate serial range of the receiver's production.
Third, I would not be standing there holding that receiver during the next BATF raid on your gun safe. It may win you an all expense paid stay at a bad hotel, especially if you have sand paper and cold blue anywhere near your house. BATF doesn't care if you didn't remove it, you are the one holding the hot potato. Like the incident above, follow the right procedure to get a serial number legally applied to it. Collector value is now completely gone, but it is stll probably a great shooter.
Just my observations - now, where is my coffee?
The above post by 'tired' states the whole case. Anything else is BS. The receiver has been 'cleaned' of the serial number and amateurishly blued, resulting in the purple hue. The carbine could not have existed in the military this way. This was obviously done after the carbine left the custody of the US, and possession is a felony as explained above. I probably would destroy the receiver and keep the parts.
interesting nm
Thank you very much for your very detailed thoughts, I appreciate it. I am sure that the original story I was given is true, considering my aquaintance inherited it from his father, who brought it home after the war. He also has his uniform and other matching items that verify his story, and authenticate the weapon.
What is distressing however is what was done to the rifle after it came home from the war. I can't imagine why this veteran would have done this to such a fine weapon, especially considering the good condition it is in. Maybe his son that I bought it from did it years later, I just don't know.
Oh well, live and learn I guess... I can always get another, so I might as well sell this one. Thanks again guys, I appreciate it.
I got ripped about ten years back with the same thing. Buying without inspecting. Have a close look at this. It was only with the help of some guys on this forum that saved the day. It was actually a 4, close to 5 digit, so I returned most of it to a collector in the States and trashed the receiver. Now I know different, if that ridge is not there, be very suspicious. The flipper was on backwards too. Cheers, Mike. Attachment 18966Attachment 18967
You're kidding....with what these guys are telling about the BATF selling the gun/receiver is not an option. Take the receiver off and burn it, bury it or send it to the BAFT but don’t drag someone else into.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogm1
But, if you do sell it forward your new address to the Federal Prison you are sent to.
JMHO
In a nutshell:
1:Rear sight on backwards.
Obviously worked over to remove S/N.
Odd re-blue (purple) job.
STD. PRO. obviously stamped after the re-blue (purple) job.
Whoa.....let's just back up the truck. For those with access to the Carbine Club's Newsletters, have a look at #350, and then #330. Is Frogm1's one of those, a presentation carbine? It would be interesting to find out if his carbine is all STD PRO. The photo in NL350 shows a STD PRO receiver without a S/N. The S/N has not been removed, it never was there. The "S" and the "O" have not been double struck, they are slightly deeper, and looks like frogm1's photo (except for the mottled bluing). This carbine in NL350 is all STD PRO, and had no cartouche nor acceptance proofs, and is registered with the Feds. You cannot "buff off" a serial number, it's too deep. It would have to be ground off, and like the other examples shown in this thread, grinding is clearly visible.
I would guess the serial number stamping is typically somewhere around .010" - .015" deep. Can't someone with a similar featured SP offer to measure from a known point to the peak of the serial number area of their receiver for comparison? I looked at Kuhnhausen and he doesn't give any dimensions useful for this. Anybody have receiver drawings? I would think the tolerance is less than the depth of the stamping.
There are more than one way to buff down steel without grinding. The serial number could also be filled and then taken down to original dimensions.
I know it would be work but it could be done.
The M1A1 I looked at in Dec. had the SN very neatly removed and showed no loss of metal.
Like I said earlier, I would like to see what it has in it also.....Frank
The prime visible evidence is that the original longitudinal mill marks are specifically missing in the area in question. The fact that the original mill marks are present on the far left of the area show that the area has been ground down. That grinding (whether with file, wire wheel or brillo pad) left the horizontal marks in the metal that are visible under the uneven bluing. The rear slope of the area has a different "edge" as it starts down in a rearward direction. I would be curious as to what the receiver looks like under the wood line.
As far as the stamp, I was referring to the "double edges" which are visible in the outer curves of the S and the O. It appears that someone was "rotating" or "wrapping" a flat stamp/tool around the curved shape of the receiver.
The first picture posted shows the rail on the right side has a lot of wear, so it has been fired a lot. The stock also shows wear from use (the crack behind the recoil plate), etc. I am curious as to why the recoil plate has dried cosmo on it but there does not appear to be any on the receiver. Same with the sight - cosmo and/or rust. As mentioned before, the sight has been installed backwards. I would think if this was intended as a presentation carbine, it and its pieces would have not be stored in cosmoline.
Frog, you have done a great job with these pictures. They are clean, shape and full of light. It would be very interesting to see detailed pictures of the entire carbine. There may be some valuable parts on the carbine. Of course, it may be a great shooter. Have you had a chance to measure the muzzle erosion? What kind of shape is the crown in?
Frog,
Sure be nice to see whats in it !
Give us a parts run down. Pictures and markings.
Good Luck,
Charlie-painter777
I don't think it ever had a number. The proximity of and the Serial number is very close (.040") and about same depth.
Hard to erase one without the other. And would Bubba go to the trouble of re-stamping STD.PRO. with exact size font stamps.
Under left side over top .620" Thats what mine measures.
frogm1,
If the remainder of your carbine has early SP parts in original condition, and it certainly may, the parts alone have considerable value.
Depending how much you paid for it you may be able to recoup your money by selling the parts to a collector and then discard the receiver.
If you want to take photos of the parts and post them here their originality and approximate value can be determined.
I've learned so much from this thread.
frogm1 why not confront(in a nice friendly way of course) the guy you bought it from and tell him what you learned. maybe he knows nothing or maybe he knows everything. people do strange things when facing doing hard time. You sounded like a good honest guy until you said you would sell it. even if you do sell it it's not worth much(maybe parts) and then you have to live with yourself.
I responded from page two but leave my comment, so if the carbine proves to be legit and is some kind of proven special rifle great. Just be careful.
The rear sight in the pictures should be carefully checked. It appears to be a reproduction and not an original. If it's fake then the rest of the carbine is most likely too. The S in STD also appears to be incorrect in the pictures.
I was just looking at the photos in the ImageShack of the receiver, flipping between the shots of the front and of the back of the receiver. May be it is just the way I am looking at it but is the STD. PRO. engraved instead of stamped. Those letters look different to me than the lettering on the front of the receiver.
To me it looks like the "mottled re-blue job" is just some type of laquer or appied finish that is starting to come off. It's not on all of the surfaces of the receiver. I wonder if you could take off the stock, go over it with some acetone, and find a presentation carbine underneath? But then there's the question of why the sight is messed up.
The reason for the mottleing is the reblue after metal alteration. The weapon was parkerized to begin with and if you don't remove ALL the park finish correctly you will get that mottle affect.
Here it is up close. You can also see the fine scratches side to side from where it has been worded on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hercules Powder
I definitely think it's been scrubbed and then polished. They may have removed the rear sight to keep it from interfering from whatever power tool they used to buff it, and then reinstalled it backwards.
The finish is cold blue. It's common for cold blue to have a blotchy uneven finish and purple hue.
Also, if this is a bring back what is the by far the most likely scenario?
A soldier brings it back and removes the serial number in fear of someone tracking down the then missing rifle, or a vet having a rarest of rare presentation carbines in the first place?
There's no doubt in my mind. But picture it, scrubbing the number off in 1946 or so and having no idea that nothing would ever come of not doing it.
Ive thought the same thing seeing otherwise pristine 1911's with the 'US Property' stamps scrubbed off. :crying:
Harlan,
You've given us a fine example of a STD !
;-)
Charlie-painter777
Some twenty years later a mystery may be solved. A friend had an old 1911 gov with no ser# . I didn't know anything about them at the time. he no longer has it but it may have been used for parts and the lower thrown away. It sounds like it may have been a GI bring back and scrubbed. My friend speculated it was a proto type and did not have a ser# or it was used by a secret gov agency(pick one) but I'm sure he was just trying to justify keeping it. He did inherit it so nothing lost i guess.