Advice on first purchase

Ive been collecting military surplus for about 6 years now and have as many guns. I am looking to get y first US made rifle and was thinking about the M1 carbine. I would like to find one from world war II. I was looking for advice on what to look for and any pointers. Im not fimilar with the nomenclature or marking in any way. Any advice would be greatly appriciated.

Also I have been looking at an add from Southern Ohio Guns. They are advetising WWII M-1Carbines . They are from various manufactures. Any one heard of these guys and what manufactures are most desireable?

Thanks Again to all who have any imput
Matt

HI Matt,
My advice would be to be extremely cautious. I would run any potential prospective gun by the forum here before purchasing. The obvious thought may be that you create immediate competition by doing so, and to some degree that might be the case, but there's also a good chance you'll save yourself much grief by getting some knowledgeable opinions first. This forum has some of the world's best Carbine folks around that can help you avoid many pitfalls. If your gun of interest in on one of the popular gun sites, chances are they've seen it anyway. There are about 4 very basic types of Carbines you'll run into when looking around. The most common is the simple "composite" or "rebuilt" gun from a mix of various manufacturers parts during and post ww2. Nice to get one of "those" that is actually rebuilt for the Korean war and not touched afterwards, but that's not always easy to tell and I won't confuse you with that now. The next is the "restored" Carbine. That is one that was in a rebuilt and/or refurbished state, then restored using vintage parts to WW2 specs. The ultimate of course, is the "totally correct unaltered original ww2 as issued example". This one is the prize of us all. And of course, the hardest to find and it can be even harder to verify. Again, the folks here are extremely helpful in making those determinations. Many have 100's of examples in their collections and dozens of years of experience. Collecting Carbines (or most any military guns) is like anything else. There are many factors involved, but with some keen interest and good instincts, you'll get the "feel" of a correct one when you see it over time. Til then, stick with someone who knows. I'll answer your ?? if I can, but there are those here who have more experience than I that we all respect. Oh, and lastly is the "modern made" newly produced carbine. Nevermind those unless you just one to shoot one up. Fine for that, but don't do that to your original. Getting too expensive for that these days! Happy Collecting. I love helping new collectors. We were all there once and folks who helped out made a ton of difference in the enjoyment of it all. The most desirable is up to you. See how it fits into your historic perspective. For me, it was "the one most encountered in the war" at first. The one the general G.I. was likely issued. That would be one made by Inland. Or you might choose classic name recognition like Winchester. Or you may love getting that really "rare one" like the Irwin Pedersen or scare variants of any brand. You may favor really early examples from 1942, or perhaps the last ones off the racks in 1945. And you may want them all.... That takes some budget for sure, but there are collectors with literally hundreds of Carbines. Myself, I only have about 11 now. I've been collecting only about 5 years though.
Happy collecting! Perry

Try the boards, many great guns are sold by collectors just swapping and selling to get something else, good deals can be found, just give it time and don't get in a hurry.
Good example of a Bavarian Rural Police.
WTS Underwood Bavarian RP Carbine - CMP Forums

All carbines are originally from WW2.
The differences as Perry pointed out, make one better than the other as a collectors piece.
The Bavarians are in their own league, like the MkIII* SMLE's with Austrian police marking, they arent "original" anymore.
Ive had many dozen carbines, but Ive only kept 5 original as I can tell, early feature rifles. Ive sold minty later war rifles, as a personal preference.
Fakes are everywhere..You should buy/trade with other collectors, as I got my minty 1943 Underwood, from another collector upgrading his UEF , from type 2, to type 1 stock example.
Again, as stated earlier, ask here, or on the Jouster board, but I think we all read CMP/Jouster/Milsurps.

If you are only going to get one, then you might hold out for something as original as you can find. Don't be in a hurry, they are not easy to find.

How much money you are willing to spend is going to be a factor too. Searching the boards you will find honest sellers, but they know the value of their guns.

Closet hiding carbines are out there. Maybe ask your friends and have them ask their parents if someone might have one sitting in the back. You might be surprised what shows up.

I don't necessarily agree with perrydcox statement "The one the general G.I. was likely issued. That would be one made by Inland."
Sure, Inland made the most. Some 2,644,048 out of 6,167,108 or about 42.9% of total carbines. But of the everyday M1, not counting M1A1's, M2's, T3's, T4's the number drops some to about 2,299,039 for Inland out of 5,803,491 M1's made, or about 39.6%. The numbers show about 6 out of 10 were made by others. You are just as likely to find a carbine made by one of the other 10 makers as you are Inland. So don't shy away from any of those. The big difference there is finding parts. Inland will be the easiest to find parts for, if you need to change something out.

Everyone has a personal favorite maker for different reasons. Mine happens to be Rock-Ola. Just the idea of a Juke Box maker building guns.

Hopefully you get the best you can for the money you are willing to spend. But I don't think you will stop at one. Not many of us have.

Jim

Like I said, the odds are that of the 11 ww2 Carbine producers, it will be an Inland as opposed to any other single carbine manufacturer. We always have to have captain calculator on all these boards don't we.

I think Jim said "necessarily agree" with Perrys opinion. At times it does seem like there are more Inlands for sale than others.
We all are collectors, and until I found these guys, I thought I knew it all from War Baby, and Reisch.
I want them all!
Many people here, including Jim, and now Perry have been helpful to me..I think the real original carbines do have a way of speaking to us..hopefully we know from experience whats original, and not. Unfortunately there are fakers out there who are good. The novice collectors need to be careful.
I wouldnt touch an SOG marked carbine..however I have a 1941 Dispersal rifle from "Alpha"..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by perrydcox

Like I said, the odds are that of the 11 ww2 Carbine producers, it will be an Inland as opposed to any other single carbine manufacturer. We always have to have captain calculator on all these boards don't we.

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What the heck is that all about? Captain calculator? I work in an Oil Refinery and am on the fire team and high repel team as well as run a unit.

All I am pointing out is that 6 out of 10 times you will not find an Inland. That is better odds then flipping a coin. That's all I said. Don't pass on one just because it is a different maker.

As you said, there is always one of these on the boards. Let me recalculate for you. 42 years knowing about carbines, carried one in Viet Nam, and 35 years collecting them, verses your stated 5.

Jim,
I think your cutting yourself a bit short. Me knowing how many you just picked up in the last couple weeks.
Did you figure in the hundreds of carbines that have been thru your hands over the past 35+ years?

A thought for all;
Out of all the originally built carbines, How many survive to this day from Wars and De-mills?
Do you think -15% could be accurate?

Cheers,
Charlie-painter777

I'll tell you what's it's all about. It was originally about helping this new collector out with some decent advice. Disecting other's comments to find some technicality to sideline the subject is NOT what it's all about. We appreciate your service to our Country and I salute you for that, but it's best to keep to the point of what the thread was all about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

A thought for all;
Out of all the originally built carbines, How many survive to this day from Wars and De-mills?
Do you think -15% could be accurate?

Cheers,
Charlie-painter777

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Charlie,

That is an interesting thought, for me any way. I have no idea if 15% is anywhere close to the number of carbine still around. But, if you use the number Jim mention 5,803,491 M1’s; which excludes M1A1’s, M2’s, T3’s and T4’s 15% would be 870,523.

Ok, if there are 870,523 carbines how carbine collectors are there?

John

I have 5!
We should take a poll...add em up from us on this board

The reason everyone sees a lot of Inlands is , I think , easy to understand. First , of course , is they made the most . But , more importantly I think , is because of us. We collect differently , but some of the popular ways is to collect is to get " one of each maker". Most of us do this , I think , which then locks up the same number of each maker , but a greater percentage of the rarer ones simply because there is less of them. Also , if we have several and have to sell one for whatever reason , we would put up the one we could replace later down the line the easiest / cheepest . Ie. , Inlands.
Chris

MDRIM13,
I'm trying to not stray to far from your questions. Just trying to add a little insight on how many carbines may be out there.

Hercules Powder,
I may not have asked my question correctly.

If we had 5,803,491 million carbines to start with and sub-tracted 15% due to battle loss and damage, along with De-milled both here in the states and abroad. 15% could possibly be a low figure... again just a guess.
I come up with...

Total made.................. 5,803,491
Guestimated loss of 15%.. 870,523
Total left after 15% loss 4,932,967

The Estimated volume of 15% loss and Final Total... rounded off.
Obviously I'm just guessing. But if you take into account the number of crashed supply planes, sunken Cargo supply ships, Carbines sent and dropped off to the Resistance Allies, Lend Lease, the piles of them we've seen rusting away in South east Asia sold as scrap metal and captured weapons. I'd think they'd have to total in the Thousands.

My father served 2 tours in the Philippines working closely with the Filipino Scouts who loved the M1 carbine in the deep bush.
In fact after we were forced off the Islands, the Philippine guerillas were supplied with carbines by submarine.

To this day many of the Independant Current Resistance Philippino Fighters use vintage WWII weapons to fight against the Terrorist group Abu Sayyaf, among others.
See picture below, which is fairly recent.

Regards,
Charlie-painter777

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../01/orig-1.jpg

Charlie,

Great picture, thanks for sharing it.

Sorry I missed your point and messed up your thought.

John

I can't help but get involved in a beancounting expedition. Before any long division is employed, maybe we should subtract a large percentage of the 3.3 million carbines loaned/granted/sold to foreign countries per the National Archives info on Jim Mock's website.

Some of those have come back thru the 80s imports, current imports, and CMP's recent 56,000, but most are not available to us today. I was told Cap'n Crunch ate over 100,000 during the Clinton years.

Might be better to count from the other end - with alot of specuation, of course. 250k NRA sales in the 60s is the only solid number. Want to add 100k imports from the 80's forward? OK. 60k thru CMP? A couple of thousand police sales (Like the current Detroit guns). Now the hard one - how many bringbacks? How about 25-50,000? Too high? Did I miss any sources? What would your guess be?

My guesses come to about 450k in the hands of US private owners today. Say the 40k bringbacks are obviously original (unless some "restorer" changed out a part without understanding parts integration); add 10k imports (CCNL #108 from 1985 reported that over a third of several thousand imports examined in a warehouse appeared at a glance to be original); add some of the Bavarians (if you can handle the plum trigger housings on some of them). That comes to 55k - or about 12% of US guns.

Your turn.

Wow Perry, I think you should take a step or two back and think about what it is that you have started here. Jim is a highly respected contributor to this site and to my knowledge never steered anyone in a bad direction. Your fly off the handle approach will get you no where real fast here. Relax and take in the wonderful knowledge that Jim and others have to offer.

We would love nothing more than to have you giving wonderful advise on this site a year, five years, 10 years from now. Enjoy the site but please keep your in-the-face, fly off the handle comments suppressed. Thank you. :thup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9z3G...eature=related

Good comments Charlie, and I am reliably informed, by a firearms instructor in the Philippines Army, that there are boxes, if not crates of them still there. Don't know if re-built or not, am "investigating" but it's hard to verify what one person tells you in that part of the world. Mike.

With six million of anything, that is a lot. I would have to agree that to say that "well you'd get an Inland" B.S. What if a shipment of NPM came in that week? Odds don't mean very much unless you can account for everything as it was sent. I don't have an Inland and I don't want one, they look like the roughest of all; I want a Quality or Standard Products.

Now i'm gonna be looking for those fellas on my next trip :lol: