I have been looking for a bayonet for my Mk4 and found this one. I think it's authentic, but I am only recently addicted to milsurps.
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I have been looking for a bayonet for my Mk4 and found this one. I think it's authentic, but I am only recently addicted to milsurps.
It is a commercial Sterling bayonet
Made for Sterling by a commercial contractor using standard SLR/L1A1 blades rivetted to No5 rifle pommels using No5 rifle crosspiece and L1A1 rifle pressed steel grips retained by aero rivets called 'Rivets, tubular aircraft'. Which we Armourers nicknamed 'RIVETS, tubular, awful' because you wound NEVER get them to fold/roll the correct way except after many attempts.
A classic example of a hybrid bayonet if ever I saw one!
This is the one that Carl and Peter and I were talking about some time back. I STILL haven't seen a live one !
Thank you, gentlemen.
Still need to dig mine out, but i believe it is the same as this but the fullers are ground so deep they actually meet in the middle
A Canadian FN bayonet will fit a Sterling SMG, at least a Canaduian made Sterling. It was actually pretty amusing to do arms drill with the Sterling with attached bayonet. Very thoughtful of the powers that were to provide us with a bayonet for the SMG, but I wouldn't fancy having to use it.
Purple, this is not even remotely the same bayonet. This resembles the #5 bayonet and it has steel scales instead of the usual wood. Very odd model. The bayonet on t eh SMG is for close quarter combat because that's where your stoppages seem to occur. NOW, I also was issued the submachine gun C1 and it's not really the same as the Sterling other than the outer shape. The bolt was in two pieces instead of the Canadian having one piece. The trigger mech was better made and ours was rather cheap. The Sterling mags had rollers and were 32 round ours were stamped and only 30 so you had 4 rounds left in the box. They had better finish...Jump in anywhere here Capt Laidler.
Yes, I wasn't commenting on this particular bayo, only on the fact that the Cdn FN bayo could be used with the Cdn C1 (Sterling pattern) SMG. I fired the C1 SMG a lot over the years and really liked it. I never experienced any form of stoppage with it, so personally felt the bayo was kind of a redundant appendage. Reach is a big factor in bayo fighting and a thrust from the stubby SMG could be easily parried by a longer weapon. A lot of stoppages with auto weapons can be traced back to worn or faulty magazines. We used to see this with well used mags for the Browning HP.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Crap................ I guess really it's a version of 'L1A1' bayonet I need to find..... mutter, mutter
Don't bust a gut NZL1A1. It's only a rifle blade and grips. The story I got from DH while writing the book was that Sterling only used to go to them for bayonets every now and then for small quantities. Sterling used to supply the pommels and cross pieces and the bayonets used to come back to Sterling to be blued or phosphated according to the order specification. Sterling would also fit the catches, springs and bolts and screws (all made in-house) and grips. The latter batches of bayonets came back l;ooking as they should but the grips wouldn't fit. There was a lot of too-ing and fro-ing and then it dawned on them that they were L1A1 blades, left over from ex Army contracts that were being used. Sterling weren't happy little rabbits but the contractors explained the situation and the use of the MUCH cheaper and readily available steel grips available from them (or in this case, via contacts at nearby Enfield Lock).
Sterling amended the grip spec, added the steel grips to their inventory and the rest is history........ steel gripped SMG/hybrid No5 bayonets
If you really want to put wood No5 grips onto a steel gripped bayonet, you can, but be warned, that the steel is VERY hard AND tough.
Peter, I personaly,was like yourself, Aware of this 'Difficulty' in Sterlings History. The Chief design & Tech Drawing engineer (Frank Waters) was a Personal friend of mine. I learnt a LOT from Frank about what went on 'Behind the scenes' at Sterlings! I recently acquired a pair of BLACK PLASTIC grips for a No.5, but I have NEVER seen or heard any references to this variant. Are you able to elucidate Mate? :thup:
Black plastic!!?? Here we go with another variant we haven't seen!
Yes B.A.R, Why do you think I grabbed 'Em!......Good old Ebay!Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
David Howroyd says that they aren't from the Sterling stable. He suggests India. They did try plastics for some applications such as scabbards but plastics were pretty basic then and many everyday chemicals would affect them, making them useless. As well as extremely brittle in the cold. Are the grips retained using nuts and bolts. Interesting though
Peter, Yes, the grips are retained in the normal way with a pair of bolts & slotted nuts. I did think of India, but they STILL churn out thier variant of the SLR Bayonet (LONGER) with Wood Grips. WHY would they turn to plastic when there is an abundance of Timber growing there?
You are aware Im SURE, that to machine up an injection mould after Tech Drawing one up & setting up for production for just this pair of componants alone, would cost MANY thousands to do. A logical qustion to my mind would be 'why' when there is so much wood growing there?
But, I Totaly agree, it IS interesting.....& a little perplexing! :move eek:
Wanting to look 'up to date'? (Possibly to encourage exports?) The INSAS assault rifle has polymer furniture, although I've read elsewhere they've also made wood furniture for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by tankhunter
I have a small collection of Indian bayonets and would quite like to get an INSAS bayonet at some point.
I have two Sterling/No5 bayonets in my collection with plastic grips. I think they both may have come from a source in England. One has the grips riveted and the other has screws with slotted fasteners.
How bout some pics Porterkids?
Yes, that would be great! Are the Riveted grips, machine Riveted. Or done by hand?Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I had hope to get some photos up last night but couldn't get to it. Too busy shoveling snow. Got another 14" last night and unfortunately for me, I remove it the old fashioned way.
I have a meeting tonight but I'll get some photos posted ion the next few days.
If you are looking for a L1A1 they are always on sale at ebay can be had cheap don't buy the first one you see can be gotten for under 40.00
I would very happily buy L1A1s at $40. I think the bayonets you're seeing on ebay are most likely Australian L1A2s.Quote:
Originally Posted by bayonet
Basically the same blade but if anything better made
Did we ever get to the bottom of the plastic grips for the Sterling bayonets? I know that during the mid 60's there was some discussion and even trials of sorts, to manufacture the SLR/L1A1 handguards from the sam PAXOLIN material that was used to make the No7 grips.
Pete, The short Answer to that one is, No. We didnt!.....................Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
OK, it's taken much longer than I expected but I finally dug out my two plastic gripped Sterlings and photographed them. My understanding was that these were commercial pieces. One has the "STERLING" etching on the blade but other than that the two pieces are void of any markings. I have not removed the grips from the one with screw bolts and slotted nuts.
Seeing yours Bill. I realised mine ahs the same grips, so thats 3 or is it 4 known
Very interesting. Thanks for the pics finally.
Good Pics, thanks for sharing. Yes, the grips i obtained are identical, but mint unused. Peter has confirmed via David Halroyd (Sterling Owner/Director) that Sterling did NOT use plastic.
Dont forget that the grip scales on NORMAL number 5 Bayonets were attched with twin screws & nuts. Thus ensuring that replacment grips of ANY type that fitted. COULD be fitted!
VERY Interesting to see the variant where ther grips are RIVETED in place. to MY mind, that would indicate the point of origin of these grips. If they were Riveted, they were done at the Factory of manufacture. And Not intended to be removed. If you can id the Bayonet variant with these riveted grips, we can id the point of origin & who made these N0.5's......:clap:
Looking at the electric arc pencilled 'STERLING' I'd say with almost complete certainty that this is a fake/repro of sorts. I say this because unless anyone can come up with a better answer, that was not done on the electric arc pencil pantograph machine (where it follows a pattern from the engraving plate) but done by hand - by a blind man in the dark. That would never have got past the Sterling inspectors.
Additionally, isn't the Sterling mark usually set in the fuller on the real McCoy.
I'd say that this identifies the bayonets as '.......of Eastern appearance.......'. There is no sign of any phosphate protective coating either. Sterling were an ISO9002(?) contractor and as a result, their phosphating process and tanks were subject to a daily strength check for want of a better word. None of the old wishy washy stuff there............
Just my twopence worth after having seen a few of Sterlings offerings in my time...........
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...0general-1.jpg
Mine says BSA C, has the same Sterling mark as Bills, and the center fuller is ground fully through in one area.
I'm not a bayonet expert - or anything expert now that I come to think of it - but knowing the Sterling quality and rigerous inspection and quality standards, something just doesn't ring true to me........... especially as your centre fuller is ground through old smithy. There might well be an explanation but while Hopkinson or some .....eastern Nations.....' might have used plastic and ground the bayonets through, Sterling wouldn't allow that quality of work to even pass over their factory threshold.
I did ask another old time Armourers about the STERLING etched logo and showed him the picture. He just shook his head...... for two reasons when I probed! First, he'd never seen that mark as all he ever sees is UK Military bayonets and secondly, he commented that such quality wasn't what he'd usually associate with Sterling after 40 years dealing with their kit.
I don't dare mention that I'd seen a 'Sterling'? blade ground through the fullers! There will be an answer somewhere, but I don't think that it lays at Sterling of Dagenham!
I purchased one, if not both, of these bayonets from a fellow in England named Neil. I cannot remember his surname but he used to sell quite a few things on ebay.
My thought is that someone got their hands on surplus, rejected or pilfered component parts and assembled some bayonets. I do not think there are many of these around, as I keep a pretty close eye on the on-line auctions and haven't seen any in quite some time. I have no explaination on the origin of the plastic grips.
Just another thought anyone with those rivetted plastic grips............... But how the xxxx do you rivet those xxxxxxg great rivets without cracking the plastic? Are they one piece rivets or two-piece where you rivet the shank of the rivet into a countersunk cup. I can't see either the rivetting marks or signs of a countersunk cup.
Any other takers as to where the genuine STERLING logo is placed on the bayonets. Fuller or cutting edge?
I have a genuine Sterling in my collection. I'll have to check it when I get home tonight.
Your comment regarding the poor quality of the "STERLING" etch on the plastic gripped piece fits in with my theory about rejected components being used to build these bayonets.
I was told mine was prbably made from rejected pieces, hence th eground through fuller, but as these are aminly commercially made I am sure the vast majority were, so not neccessarily fakes just cr4p
The STERLING etching on my genuine blade is in the same location as the one pictured about. Skennerton shows these plastic gripped bayonets in his book and identifies them as being unmarked commercial pieces.
Yes, but it STILL leaves a question, Commercial possibly. But from WHOM & WHERE?.....Quote:
Originally Posted by porterkids
---------- Post added at 03:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:37 AM ----------
I concurr with Peters comments with regards to the quality of the 'Etching'! It is Crap! You can even see where the electic pencil tip has slipped & skipped in a couple of places. Away from the original intended shape of the box for the word STERLING. I have also visited the Now Late Sterling Works, & seen the inspection processes in execution. Hardly anything slipped through the net of sub standard quality due to the rigerous. And frequent amount of production checks with purpose made gauges. I have seen a few 'Commercial' Sterling No.5's, & the etching was always cleanly done & clear! Also, each COMERCIAL Blade had the METAL riveted grips fitted. Always associated normaly, with the L1A1 Rifle Series.
Thanks to Vince for getting this thread up and running many months ago. It's certainly been interesting even for a totally non-bayonet fiend like me!
Opened up several new leads and avenues too. Good one Vince................ Good replies from the others too. I have given all this out to Graham Priest too
Yes, It has certainly opened a can of worms, so to speak Peter! BUT, in an interesting & constructive way, it has to be said! :thup:
BE QUICK because there's a No5 bayonet's worth spares on that auction site. Look under lee enfield No5 bayonet It ends in a few hours. Includes grips, nuts, complete fixing-bolt, nut and spring plus new mouthpiece if anyones interested
Cheapest place to buy a L1A3 bayonet is Henry Krank, £25 plus postage. I doubt you will ever find an L1A1 bayonet. The metal hand grip Sterling bayonet above is the same as mine. Mine cost £100! a few years ago.
If you want a long read about the Sterling SMG get "The Guns of Dagenham". ( UK tax payers shout and rant at this point)!
Kind regards, Lester