Hand-Me-Down NRA Sporter?

Hello All. I am currently deployed with the USAF, but before I left, I loaded my laptop up with pics of a SA Model 1903 I inherited recently. I have no intention of selling the gun, so I don't care really about its value. However, it does appear to be quite a nice Model 1903, and it appears to be a nra sporter. However, based on research i have already done, the fact that it lacks a barrel band, and being that the front sight is not standard, I am not 100% sure if its an original NRA sporter. It has a star gauged barrel, and the serial number on the top of the receiver matches the bolt's stenciled serial number. The front of the barrel shows it was produced in 1 -32. Serial number is 1406882. The stock also lacks a circle P on it. However, a knowledgable guy at a gun show informed me that based on what he saw, the gun appeared to be either 100% original, or at least "period correct", based on the grade/stain of the wood, its lack of signs/markings indicating it was modified, etc. So I am attaching some pics and hoping for some informative feedback. Thanks!

I got your question on the M1903.com forum and am researching your rifle. From your pictures, it appears to be a modified NRA Sporter, as you guessed. Is there a number, like "B4776" about one third of the way from the receiver end on the top of the barrel?

The rifle is NOT "100% original". It was bought and modified significently. Springfield did not make those sort of modifications, but a large number of gunsmiths of the period could have done so.

RtL

RtL, I just Skyped my wife, and asked her to look. She says there are no numbers or letters of any sort on top of the barrel. So it is an NRA Sporter, though? That's excellent, even if its not 100% original. Would it be considered "proper" to try to have this gun redone back to its original look, or should I leave it as is? Or, since it's already significantly modified, would it still be considered a a no-no in gun-collector circles to not have the gun modified any more than it already is, say like if i decided to have a gunsmith make the gun better than it already is? I have no such plans in either direction, but I'm just curious. Also, do you think the stock is also non-original? i noticed the sling hardware is quite non-standard also.

Best of luck on the deployment. Been there done that, myself. I think you have a very nice keeper. Not so sure I would do anything with it. Very common in the '30's to buy a new barrel and receiver directly from Springfield. You could buy parts or assembled, either way. NM or Service. Then a local or well-known gunsmith would finish the rifle for you. It appears to be a GI stock that was well done, most likely a NRA Sporter stock. I would hang on to it. There is a kind gentleman at CMP-South called "Lyn". When you get home try to track him down, have him eyeball it. He is a friend of John Beard. Good luck on the tour of duty, my friend.

Your rifle is a DCM Sales NRA Sporter that has been modified from it's original configuration into a more commercial type rifle. The original stock was retained, and it appears the original buttplate was modified and retained.
The stargage number on a Sporter barrel is on the bottom where it is hid.

There are two things about the rear sight on this rifle that I noticed. The sight has the turn down peep and the rear mounted windage scale associated with the Lyman 48S sight not the Lyman 48C. I thought that the "Sporter" always came with the Lyman 48C. On looking at the top view and comparing this picture with my NM903 and its Lyman 48C and other 48C equipped 03's,it looks as if the sight is mounted too far foward. It looks to me as if the gallows arm would interfer with clip loading. I do not have a "Sporter" for comparison so cannot be sure. Since the SN indicates that this falls within the last year of "Sporter" manufacture, perhaps the 48S was substituted for the 48C. An SRS lettter would confirm that this was/is a true "Sporter".
Comments?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers

The stargage number on a Sporter barrel is on the bottom where it is hid.

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Oops! Forgot about that - thanks for the correction, Johnny!

Thanks to the replies, observations and comments to Cosine26, Johnny Peppers, Calif-Steve, and of course, Rick The Librarian! First I want to say I am thrilled that it looks like this is in fact an authentic NRA Sporter, just one that isn't 100% original from the factory. In fact, there happens to be what is described as an all-original NRA Sporter at this link, http://www.auctionarms.com/closed/di...mnum=8202108.0, and the serial number on that rifle is only 50 or so units off of my serial number (and i think star-gauged barrels were made is batches). So based on previous research I conducted via the Internet, and referenceing two books I have on the M1903, it is cool that my initial observations appear to have been correct (authentic NRA Sporter in non-original condition). I will be more thrilled, however, once i know the wood stock is indeed original. I mean, the front sight's originality is not a big deal to me---and i could easily replace it with an original front sight, and not really "mutilate" or "devalue" the weapon (the one thing I don't like about the front sight? it covers the SA numbers/symbols on top of the barrel!). But the fact that the gun doesn't have a barrel band does strike me as strange---because wouldn't removing the band leave an indelible mark, or screw hole, or some sign on the barrel or stock that would suggest that at one time there was something there that is now missing? And this relates to the stock---I am really hoping the stock is original (obviously i don't care if it was properly resized to fit the buyer), because let's face it: outside of the barrel/bolt/receiver, the stock is a very important part of the weapon---at least to me as far as originality goes. But if its the original stock, then wouldn't i be able to maybe one day find a proper NRA Sporter barrel band, and install it again without "mutilating/devalue" the weapon? I mean, if it can be removed and not mark the weapon, then couldn't one easily be re-installed? So here are a few questions if I may ask, as i really am interested in this family/firearm piece of history:

For Johnny Peppers: 1) So you do feel its an original stock? But then how was the buttplate "modified & retained"? 2) Isn't there more checkering on this rifle stock than what came on production NRA Sporter stocks?

For Cosine26: 1) Look at the link I gave above, and you'll see lots of pics of what is advertised (and looks correct to me) as a 100% original NRA Sporter. Compare the pics of that Lyman Sight and how its mounted with mine, because that gun is only about 50 units off from mine serial number-wise. Then tell me what you think? 2) What is an SRS Letter, and how do I pay for someone to do a archive assessment of my rifle (I assume an SRS is some sort of authentication service?).

For Caif-Steve: Thanks for the links and contact info. I will look those guys up before i leave. As for my stock: 1) Is my stock supposed to have a "circled 'P'" on it? My stock has no marks stamped on it. I will try to attach more photos to help you guys help me. I really appreciate this you guys, and this helps keep me busy when I'm bored!

So based on the Johnny Peppers/Rick The Librarian "chat", am I to assume that maybe that number we were looking for on top of the barrel 1/3 of the way down the barrel from the receiver end was actually supposed to be the Star gauge info that is on the bottom side of the barrel, hidden from view? I am aware that there is supposed to be info stamped on my barrel on the bottom side, but i have not had the barrel removed from the stock----yet.

This is the sight on an original Sporter sold in 1923. Being primarily a sporting rifle, clip loading would not be an issue I suppose.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../33aa0l5-1.jpg

---------- Post added at 11:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 PM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mariodawg

For Johnny Peppers: 1) So you do feel its an original stock? But then how was the buttplate "modified & retained"? 2) Isn't there more checkering on this rifle stock than what came on production NRA Sporter stocks?

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Yes, I believe that is the original stock which has been modified.
Here is a shot of an unaltered Sporter buttplate.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/6ycfix-1.jpg

We really need John Beard to take a look. Where is he?

That is one fine looking rifle. I would drop cash on it when I saw it.
I would leave it alone,polish it up, and put it where visitors could see it when they are in your house. Find a 1903 when you get back. These forum members could steer you towards one.

Forgive me Johnny, but I do not see how that buttplate is different than the one on my rifle. Maybe its is "shaved thinner" than the one in the picture you sent? I cannot tell the difference. Remember when you were a kid and when you went to the doctor's office, they would have "Highlight" magazines for kids, and they would have puzzles where you were supposed to figure out what was different between the pics? Well, I obviously sucked at solving those! :)

...and now i understand the comment from Cosine26 and Johhny's pic about the gallows arm and how it would interfere with the clip loading. Very interesting observations. I have not fired this weapon yet. But I will when i get back home---and of course I will get it cleaned. I bet the gun hasn't been cleaned (or fired) in a looooooong time! My father I am pretty sure never fired this weapon (he wasn't into firearms). It came from my maternal grandfather, but i do not know beyond that. Me, on the other hand, i love firearms! I have a small collection of my own, and I tend to gravitate towards military firearms. Believe it or not, when i first saw this rifle and saw it was a M1903, my first impression was, "I wish it was configured like the typical military counterpart beacause it now looks "too civilian" for a military rifle"! You can imagine how my opinion changed once i started actually researching M1903's!!! :)))

Hi Johnny,
Your picture shows me that the 1923 “Sporter” was equipped with the 48S rear sight; therefore, the 48S on this rifle is correct. Brophy must be in error when he says that he 48S was introduced in 1939. It further shows that the position of the sight would probably interfere with clip loading.
I agree that the stock is a modified original. The butt plate appears to be original and the rear sling swivel is of the service type, which I do not believe a custom stock maker would use considering that the front swivel is of the quick detachable type. I do not think that replacing the upper band would be possible as it appears that the stock fore end has been slimmed down.
I do not believe that fitting the barrel with an original “Sporter” front sight would be possible. The original “Sporter” front sight (as I understand it) was the standard service type and would require a “boss” to center the sight and to pin it on. I believe that the boss was removed when the present front sight was installed and possibly the barrel date.
For marlodawg:
You have a very nice rifle and all indications are is that it is a modified “Sporter”. It would be very difficult to restore to original as I think that finding and acquiring an original stock and barrel band would be extremely difficult and expensive. If the barrel has been modified to install the present front sight, you would need an original”Sporter” barrel. Another difficult and expensive proposition.
The Springfield Research Service (SRS) is a privately operated service by the U.S. Martial Arms Collector and has a large collection of serial numbers of rifles sold through the DCM during the period 1922 -1942. Having a letter from them may increase the value of your rifle. When I bought my NM1903 I used their service and confirmed first that the rifle was indeed a NM1903 and received information as to whom and where it ws sold. Kind of an expensive venture but worth it in my opinion. I believe that there are members of this forum that can tell you if there is a “hit” on the SRS list since your serial number shows.
Were it mine, I would explore the SRS angle and keep the rifle as a valuable example of a time long ago when quality was the watch word.
Hope this helps.

John Beard is here! But, I am no expert on NRA Sporters. I defer Sporter questions to Herschel Garner. Johnny Peppers is also very knowledgeable about Sporters.

As noted, the rifle has a replacement front sight, and the barrel has been altered accordingly.

The rifle appears to have its original stock. But, as noted, the stock has been altered substantially. Alterations include slimming the butt and buttplate to match, checkering the grip and fore end, adding a grip cap, altering the grip and comb profile, removing the barrel band, and shortening the fore end. The original barrel band was retained by a pin through the fore end. I am unable to determine if the pin hole has been plugged and disguised in the checkering, or perhaps the fore end was shortened to the extent that the pin hole was sawed off.

The rifle is best left as is.

My 2c worth.

J.B.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mariodawg

Forgive me Johnny, but I do not see how that buttplate is different than the one on my rifle. Maybe its is "shaved thinner" than the one in the picture you sent? I cannot tell the difference. Remember when you were a kid and when you went to the doctor's office, they would have "Highlight" magazines for kids, and they would have puzzles where you were supposed to figure out what was different between the pics? Well, I obviously sucked at solving those! :)

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The lip around the butt plate on your rifle appears to have been trimmed down considerably, and from the picture it appears the butt of the stock is slightly curved now. Maybe it is just the picture, but the butt plate on your rifle looks much thinner in profile.

OK. That was awesome. I am convinced to "without a shadow of a doubt" to leave this rifle alone and "as is". No more talk about modifying anything. I am so glad the gun is a true NRA Sporter, and that the gun is original enough to retain its identity, yet also unique enough to say this is a one-of-a-kind gun, customized probably by the person who originally bought it. It was nice to hear about the checkering, the stock mods, the swivel hardware, the buttstock, and on and on and on. Thanks so much to all who contributed. Now I will work on figuring out how to get some sort of authenticity paperwork done on this gun. What a cool rifle...I can't wait to get home and clean it "gently" and shoot the darn thing! A gun can't be just looked at; i have to shoot it and feel what she has to offer; not to mention see how accurate she is! I have to get some sleep....i had a long day, and an even longer one tomorrow. You guys on this site R-O-C-K though, and I will keep checking in from time to time to see if any new observations are made. Thanks Again All!

Can someone post or mail me the often mentioned list of known NM/NRA rifles? I've been looking over and over on the web, but never found the list though everybody seems to have it :)

Thanks,

Georg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Promo

Can someone post or mail me the often mentioned list of known NM/NRA rifles? I've been looking over and over on the web, but never found the list though everybody seems to have it :)

Thanks,

Georg

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You have to purchase it from Springfield Research Service. I don't know if it is still available or not.

HTH,

Emri

1406882 SPT 01/26/34 DCM RIFLE SALES 1922-42

Jim

Thanks for the confirmation, Jim! :)

OK, All. I just sent a letter requesting copies of official documentation about my rifle, with my dues/fees, to Wayne at the SRS. It also sounds like I will be able to meet some of you at the November 2011 Tulsa show. Hope to see you there....and "Thanks Again" for all the help!

Respectfully Proud to Serve,
Mark Ciarlone
960 EAACS (deployed)

Please keep in mind that any of the older milsurps that were done by competent gunsmiths around the country such as Paul Jaeger in Pennsylvania and many others are commanding a premium.

I would be extremely hesitant about "backdating" any rifle in this condition, even though it is not in original configuration as sold through the DCM. This is a case where the original is one thing and the modification is something perhaps even better. I am sure the original gunsmith felt the same way when he changed the rifle. All his work appears to be excellent and professional.

Changing it back would simply devalue the rifle and make it look like a parts rifle. At least this way, it is original for the time period and valuable because the gunsmith work is 50-70 years old.

Yep. No worries. The rifle will remain exactly as it is today. I was already "thoroughly convinced." Thanks for the feedback, though!

The picture above clearly shows the Lyman 48 sight that was THE ONE used on the Style NRS rifle (the "Springfield Sporter"), Ref pages 77 through 80 of "The Springfield Rifles' Era".
The 48S was a revised version of the 48 that was introduced by Lyman in 1938 and further revised in 1957. Details of those revised versions are spelled out in pages 292 and 293 of the book referenced above. It is available from Brownell's or from Scott duff.

The Lyman 48 , as pictured above, was THE ONE used on the Style NRA rifle (the "Springfield Sporter", as is detailed in pages 77 through 80 of "The Springfield Rifles' Era" that is sold by Brownell's as well as Scot Duff.

The Lyman 48S was a revised version introduced by Lyman in 1938 and much further revised in 1957, as detailed in pages 292 and 293 of the referenced book.

(The Lyman 48B and later 48C did not have the "turn-down peep" and were used on the Armory's target rifles, both Cal..22 and Cal..30.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mariodawg

OK, All. I just sent a letter requesting copies of official documentation about my rifle, with my dues/fees, to Wayne at the SRS. It also sounds like I will be able to meet some of you at the November 2011 Tulsa show. Hope to see you there....and "Thanks Again" for all the help!

Respectfully Proud to Serve,
Mark Ciarlone
960 EAACS (deployed)

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Chances are pretty good that all will be available will be the receipt from the rifle's sale. Still, it is interesting to find out.

A few years ago, I sent in a serial number and got back the information it was a DCM Sales rifle. After receiving the letter from SRS, I realized I had transposed two numbers. I checked again and found my rifle was a National Match!!

Good to see Mr. Campbell online again.

My two NRA Sporters and M2 for reference:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0813-1.jpg

Forgive me, but what am I missing here? Does my rifle, as depicted in the photos, have the Lyman 48C or 48S sight? if it is the 48S, then by definition it is not the original sight, correct?
I thought it was a Lymon 48c sight, but i am only a newbie when it comes to M1903 rifles....

As posted above, the 48S was never used on an Armory product, having been introduced after production of the "Sporters". The only correct sight is the short slide option Lyman 48.
The long-slide 48 was used only on a prototype Cal..22 M1922 rife, so does not belong on a Sporter.
The 48B and later 48C were target sights (no turn-down peep) used ONLY on target rifles.

By the way, the headless cocking piece will be a replacement of the issued headed one.

Dear Campbellbook, I do not have a book here to reference. Looking at the photo of the three rifles on the previous page, with two NRA Sporters and a M1922, the rifle in the middle has a longer (READ: taller) Lyman sight. I am assuming, therefore, that is the Lyman 48S ("Which one doesn't look like the others"). Then the ones on the top and the bottom are the NRA sporters since they look the same sight-wise, and the one in the middle must be the M1922.

Looking at my sight, it appears to have the shorter Lyman sight, so it must be a Lyman 48C?

I have no idea what a "turn-down peep" is. Can you educate me?

Here is another pic of my rifle.

Sincerely,
Mark

Mark, the top rifle is the .22 M2, which undoubtedly has a correct 48C.

The middle rifle has a very early 48, the long-slide option, which is NOT correct for the Style NRA rifle (the "Springfield Sporter").

The bottom rifle looks correct except with a substituted cocking piece. The sight looks to be a proper Lyman 48. If it is, it will have a "turn-down peep", which can be turned up to give a smaller peep if wanted when hunting with the aperture disk properly removed.

The long-slide Lyman 48 was sometimes put on a rifle by it's owner to have a slide totally inside and supported by the base when sight elevated for shooting at 1000 yards.