Could be Veerrry interesting
8.15x57???
I think you should check on that. I cannot find any trace of a cartridge 8.15x57. It is also vital to establish whether or not it is a rimmed cartridge. I found mention of an 8.2x57 rimless, without any information on where/why/when it was used. But there were several now-obsolete rimmed cartridges in the "approx. 8mm" family. Most desirable is the 8.15x46R cartridge - the German equivalent to the 32-40, which, in the imprecise manner of such designations, was also sometimes described as 8.2mm. It was also known as the "Frohnpatrone", from the designer, or "Schützenpatrone", as it was popular with target shooters.
As well as plenty of commercial hunting and target rifles, there was a service rifle known as the "Wehrmanngewehr" that was chambered for this cartridge. This was intended for ex-soldiers on the reserve list, to keep up their shooting skills without letting 98s out of military hands. It looks just like a Gewehr 98, but with a flat tangent sight instead of the high-curving "lange Visier". If you find one of those, I can assure you that they have considerably more collector value than a normal Gewehr 98. And reloading gear, cases and bullets are available.
But if it is in some other obsolete chambering, then the yardstick is "if it is not listed by CH tool and die, forget it".
You mentioned something about a presentation, and the chances are that the seller has made a mistake in the chambering. 8.15x46R would be a very likely chambering for a presentation rifle to a "schuetzen" or retired soldier. And after your experience with the percussion rifle DaveN, you are surely not put off by spots on the bluing, or even a duffle cut - Claven 2 will talk you through that one. TSTV is likely to be an abbreviation for TST (whoever that is) Verein i.e. society or club. Or (getting more speculative) the T... Sport- und Turn-Verein, i.e. the T... Sporting and Gymnastics Club.
Having said all that, if you live in a country without restrictions on the number of old service rifles you can buy, then my advice would be: if it is all there, and the bore is not hopeless, and it is going for a wall-hanger price - get it!
---------- Post added at 04:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 PM ----------
DaveN, if you get it, then please post GOOD pictures of the markings and the label, and I will try to decipher it.
:wave:
Jackpot! Identified T.ST.V
DaveN, you really have scored a winner!
It looks completely genuine.
Normally I want rifles to be in good shooting condition, and am not worried much about the exterior. In this case, there is a lot of history revealed by the exterior, and this is one case where I would go along with the collectors and say
DO NOT REFINISH IT
- just clean it gently, and do not touch the stickers - they are very fragile and provide valuable information. Clean the bore properly of course!
Although markings on metal can be(relatively) easily faked to fool the non-expert, faking the stickers would be work for for a master forger who would have more profitable things to do.
The rifle is indeed an example of what is is generically known as a "Wehrmannsgewehr" in the "Schuetzen" caiiber 8,15x46, as predicted. Whether originally made as such or converted from a '98 rifle or carbine - difficult to tell, as you did not post a full-length photo. As anyone who has a copy of Ball's book knows, the numbers of variations on the theme of Mauser is enormous.
The group of 4 proof marks: crown over B, G, U and N respectively indicates
B = proof in finished condition, must have U as a pre-condition.
G = proof for rifled barrel
U = proof mark
This was not used after 1939, so the rifle was made long before the date of the stickers.
N = nitro proof
This was also changed in 1939 to a Nazi-style eagle.
Likewise the B and U marks on the bolt handle, which also shows the rifle's number U578.
The rifle was made years before the stickers were applied. No great surprise there - in 1944, when the invasion of France ws in full swing, I doubt that gunsmiths had much time for making private rifles.
The rectanguler sticker says:
Landesschiessen (i.e. regional shooting competition for the Land)
(over Nazi eagle)
Innsbruck, 2-16. Juli 1944
The Land is, of course, Tirol.
See the oval sticker.
Standschützen Verra???Tirol-Vorarlberg
???Schiessstand (i.e. shooting range)
??? was probably a place name.
This would appear to be a club sticker, dating from before the Innsbruck sticker.
(Vorarlberg is the Land between Tirol and Switzerand)
I also see traces of yet another sticker, to the left of the oval sticker.
These are not presentation stickers, but the kind of sticker still used today, when a rifle is inspected and accepted before the competition.
Many shooters leave them on the butt as "been there, done that" evidence.
Finally, the T.ST.V mark that started it all.
Although it is all in capitals, It is actually T.St.V.
This can be found in Germany and Austria as the abbreviation for
"Technische StudentenVerbindung"
Difficult to transfer to other cultures, but this is a student body in a university (in this case, technical/engineering/scientific students). Something like an American fraternity. Reputed (especiallY in those days) to be very conservative, very patriotic, and therefore by no means politically neutral. The kind of student body where the members wear pill-box caps, uniforms, and practice duelling with swords. You have surely seen such in Hollywood films!
And there is a University of Innsbruck!
And still such a body! (not necessarily the same one)
K.T.St.V. Alemannia. Siebererstraße 7b. A-6020 Innsbruck
Bingo!
Congratulations!
Patrick
:wave:
Cleaning rod socket - a repair option!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DaveN
I just took it apart for the 8th time. the bolt side with the hole only goes in 1 inch (just a guess)and ends in wood, the other side, the metal is sunk into the wood and is threaded metal inset plug. could this be a modification or an elaborate repair.
No, that is the perfectly normal threaded socket base for the end of the cleaning rod.
It seems that Bubba sawed through the stock, not knowing about the socket, and when he hit the rod socket the rest of the wood snapped off. That the hole it runs on a little way into the rear portion is simply production tolerance in the deep drilling. This also confirms that the rifle was converted from one of the '98 family - a custom rifle made from new would not have required the cleaning rod hole.
You could now measure the distance to the muzzle and establish the length of cleaning rod that you would need to complete the rifle. Just for looks, of course. But as a military cleaning rod is not required for this type of rifle, this hole offers an ideal possibility for inserting a glued-in strengthening peg to help bind the two halves together. I was also wondering how to align the two halves when gluing them together - this hole provides the answer.
How about it, Claven2? Hardwood peg? What do you recommend?
Patrick
:wave:
Leave the handguard on! a) It is a proper part of the rifle b) if you remove it, you will need a different lower band. And the rifle will (in my eyes) just look messed up. Your call, of course!
As to the serial number: the Mauser factory records were lost in the war. Jon Speed has writtten a book that recreates them as well as can be from fragmentary information. But it is expensive, and from the markings we can date the rifle (in its present form) to between 1933 and 1939.
Another piece of the puzzle!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrick Chadwick
Standschützen Verra???Tirol-Vorarlberg
Got it! It is:
"Standschützenverband Tirol-Vorarlberg"
This was a compulsory incorporation of all the shooting societies in the area after the "Anschluß" of Austria with the 3rd Reich in 1938. Set up to foster paramilitary training. July 1944 was quite possibly the last meeting they ever had. As a Nazi-led organization it ceased to exist in 1945, when private possession of military weapons was forbidden by the Allies. It took some years before private shooting clubs could be re-established.
Patrick
:wave:
NO, not the same, just similar!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DaveN
Are you saying I can just buy 32 40 and shoot it in this rifle
For heavens sakes! NO!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DaveN
a similar "ecological niche".
It is just ballistically similar to... not the same as...
But Buffalo Arms has ready-loaded ammunition, and reloading gear will be available somewhere (Lyman, CH).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DaveN
the rear sight is 100-175 and max at 300 meters. It should be fun to shoot.
Sight range sounds correct. Similar useful range to a 32-40. Very light to shoot, and can be super-accurate at 100 meters.
Patrick
:wave:
Correction to earlier post
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrick Chadwick
8.15x46R The correct (CIP) designation is 8.15x46R (Nominal) bullet diameter 8.15 mm (Nominal) case length 46 mm R = Rand (German for rimmed) But the following designations have been used in the past 8.15x46.5 R Jagdgewehr Normal 8.15 Frohn 8.15x46 R Frohn 8.15 Harstang 8.15x46 R Normal it's all the same!
That should read (Nominal) BORE = 8.15 mm
NOT BULLET
However, these size designations are always a bit odd. If you really want to know what the actual groove diameter is, I suggest you slug it.
All the reloading info I can find here points to 0.321" lead bullets (grease-groove or copper-plated) as the right kind of projectile. So 32-40 bullets will be fine.
But NOT hard-jacketed bullets - they are too hard to deform enough to fill the grooves - the 8,15x46R was concieved at the end of the black-powder era, and the groove depth is a hefty 8 thou, if the CIP data is to be believed. Another reason to slug the bore and measure what it actually is!
:wave:
8.15x46R - Caution - data sheets ahead!
Well, I didn't want to confuse everybody with facts, but since jmoore has opened this can of worms, I'll do my best to catch the little beasts before they start wriggling all over the place.
The CIP bore data for the 8.15x46R read as follows.
G1 (diameter at start of throat) min 8.45 mm = 0.333"
Projectile max 8.38 mm = 0.329"
So the bullet fits into the throat. That sounds plausible so far.
- But then it gets downright peculiar.
Bore diameter min 7.60mm = 0.299:yikes:
Groove diameter min 8.03 mm =0.316:eek:
- which is, of course, what COTW has written.
So a bullet that is THICKER than an 8x57IS bullet is supposed to be squeezed into a bore that is MUCH TIGHTER than the 8x57IS (8,20 groove/7,92bore,) tighter even than the 8x57I (8.07 groove/7.80 bore) as used for hunting rifles in Germany up to WWII. Not while I'm standing close to it, please:thdown:
Sorry CIP, I just don't believe it! :madsmile:
I know I am going far out on a creaky limb here, but I think that there was a typo somewhere in the dim distant past, and since then everybody has been copying from the same faulty data sheet.
And if I have got it all dreadfully wrong, will someone please straighten me out!
Anyway, DaveN, now you know the ghastly details of why I seriously recommend that you only use lead bullets. As they say over and over again in the reloading manuals:
"Slug your bore and size accordingly"
- And I would be very interested to see what the actual groove/bore values are in your rifle!
Patrick
:wave:
New-made - not a Gew98 rebuild
Just an update on the identification:
I finally got round to looking at my own copy of Olson.
DaveN; your rifle is exactly the same as the Wehrmannsgewehr shown on P239 of the 3rd Edition. Not a rebuild (those apparently had straight bolt handles), but newly made by Mauser 1935-9.
And thanks again to jmoore for giving me the absolutely correct T.St.V. tip!
Patrick
:wave:
8.15x46R dimensions and loads
DaveN, jmoore,
I think you now understand why I am bothered by the available data on the 8.15x46R chambering. This is a clear case where one should definitely not trust what one reads, but
"Slug your bore and size accordingly"
A Visier Special published 15 different loads for the 8.15x46R, all with a 0.321" copper-plated or grease-groove lead bullet. NO hard jackets!
If I can find any more practical info, I will post it here.
And a reloading tip for DaveN: If you do purchase a 20-pack of ready-loaded ammo, do not just fire them all off! Keep 2 back.
If the other 18 cartridges perform satisfactorily, then use the 2 reserves as follows: one you keep as a dimensional reference, to check overall length, neck diameter with bullet loaded, seating depth, crimp yes/no etc.
The second should be very carfeully weighed, and then dismantled. Weigh the bullet and the primed case. And the powder charge, if you can catch it cleanly when you pull the bullet. That way you have a good idea where to start. You will, of course, have to make you own informed guess as to the type of powder used. My guess is that it would be similar to what would be used for a 32-40.
I know that is all very approximate, but it gives you a starting point, and you can compare it with any published loads you can find.
Patrick
:wave:
T.St.V. identification update/confirmation
Digging around today for means of identifying a P08 pistol with non-standard markings, I found a picture of the identical markings as on this rifle.
The marking is the Nazi emblem of the Tiroler Standschützen Verband, used after this old organization had been turned into a Nazi paramilitary unit, and the rifle is one of a series of Wehrmanngewehre specifically made by Mauser for the T.St.V. - not a remarked earlier version. Apparently no less than 34000 shooters took part in that last championship in 1944!
That rifle is, with those stickers on it, in effect a historical document. Do not alter it! OK, I know I said that before, but it really is extremely rarely that one knows so precisely "where it's been".
Patrick
:wave:
Establishing maximum usable bullet diameter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jmoore
The drama with such a wide range of possible "correct" bullet diameters is that any loading die that is purchased "off the shelf" is going to almost certainly do a poor job at getting a proper neck I.D.
Well, there is a simple trick that one can use to make a good estimate of the maximum neck size that will fit. Simply use a neck expander to a make an increasingly "blunderbuss" mouth to the neck, until you find that the cartridge case mouth is scraping in the chamber. Back off the expander a bit and repeat with another case, until you reach a condition where, if you mark the case mouth with a felt-tip pen, you do not get a bright line right round the mouth after chambering the cartridge. You need the felt pen trick, because it is too difficult to detect by feel alone. Measure that neck diameter and you know the absolute maximum neck diameter that will fit. Reduce that by another couple of thou, for safety and you have just about the maximum neck diameter that you can use when a bullet is seated. When you have acquired bullets of what seem to be the right diameter, repeat the test with a seated bullet in an empty case!
WARNING! As always, this kind of measurement places the responsibility entirely on YOU. This is not bench-rest equipment with bench-rest tolerances, so you must allow a looser fit than a bench-rest shooter would go for. If you use cases from a different manufacturer, you will have to make the test again!
:wave:
