A friend recently heard not to shoot modern ammo in an M1 garand. I have never heard this. Any opinions? Thanks
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A friend recently heard not to shoot modern ammo in an M1 garand. I have never heard this. Any opinions? Thanks
There are countless threads here on this subject. If you search, you will find.
Hi, gildman...
Well, as regards:
...allow me to tease a bit, and ask what "unmodern" ammo would be: loose black powder and ball? Here's a lengthy -- and I mean long take on the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by gildman
Ben Hartley
========================
("Modern") Commercial Ammunition and the M1 "Garand" Rifle.
Every so often, someone posts as follows: "Can I shoot [brand xyz][bullet wight nnn][headstamp pdq7][and so on] in my M1 rifle?" A more generic form is: "Can I shoot commercial over-the-counter .30-'06 ammunition in an M1 rifle?"
The all-inclusive, simple -- and misleading -- answer is, "Yes, but..."
Granted, there are Federal, and IIRC, Hornady commercial loadings specifically tailored to the M1, but with these two (expensive) exceptions, for a box-stock, as-built-and-issued M1, the better and equally simple answer is "no." And here's why it's a good idea to avoid commercially-loaded (other than the aforementioned "tailored" loadings) .30-'06 ammunition if possible:
Military .30-‘06 ammunition and SAAMI-standard civilian loadings will almost certainly produce similar chamber pressures which are at or below the safe "proof" pressure for any given rifle in good condition. Fine so far, but in the M1 "Garand," chamber pressure is not the problem; it's pressure at the gas port -- a couple of inches back from the muzzle -- that governs.
Let's assume two loadings, one of "slow" powder, and one of "fast" powder, neither of which exceeds the SAAMI chamber pressure standard when fired in our rifle. ("Slow" and "fast" in this context refer to the burning rates of the respective propellants.)
If the propellant (powder) has a too-slow burn rate, even if the chamber pressure is below SAAMI maximum, the pressure at the gas port will likely be too high, and may very well slam the operating rod to the rear hard enough to damage it: bend the rod or crack the piston, perhaps. It is also likely that the bolt will strike the inside of the receiver heel, which it is not supposed to do. Given enough time with what might be termed "overenthusiastic" ammunition, especially if combined with a weak operating rod spring, and the bolt can end up cracking the heel of the receiver. Yes, M1 receivers have been cracked -- a piece actually pounded loose -- under these conditions; the rifle doesn't "blow up" as that term is generally understood. (A damaged operating rod can be repaired or replaced, but a cracked receiver means that one has now become the proud owner of an unwieldy .30-caliber paperweight or a real nifty wall hanger. And no, a receiver so cracked cannot be safely welded back together; don't even think about it.)
Too fast a powder, given at-or-below-maximum allowable chamber pressure, probably won't do any damage. It's likely, however, that it won't generate enough pressure to reliably cycle the rifle's action. The action may appear to cycle, but faulty extraction and ejection or failure to load subsequent round(s) will probably occur. (It looks for all the world like a classic case of "short stroking," which is precisely what it is.) Granted, with most over-the-counter .30-'06 ammunition, low gas port pressure isn't a concern vis-a-vis physical damage, but it sure plays hob with the rifle's functioning.
Please note that neither of these phenomena are absolutely guaranteed: they may, in fact, be very rare. Can they happen? Surely. And people get run over by busses, too. Rare or not, in either case you have a nonfunctional rifle; I think you'll agree that neither condition qualifies as A Good Thing.
Yes, there are those who howl that "It's possible to shoot 'FedChesterUMC,' 'Ursus / Lupus Russus,' (or even Wally World cheap crap) with no problems, and I've done it for years." (They generally howl in ALL BOLD CAPS. [grin]) Uh huh. OK if they say so, more power to 'em; it's their rifle, and some people do get away with it. I fired some Remington/UMC Green Box in my Garands, too, before I knew any better. Given a eighty(+)-year-old design and an at least fifty-five-year-old rifle, I'll not do it again. M2 Ball -- if obtainable -- is assuredly the way to go for what I termed a "box-stock, as-issued" M1.
(Update 01/30/2011: When I first posted this, I believed that Remington had stated that 150-gr FMJ, product code L 30062 was not suitable for the M1 rifle. I cannot find that reference, but several second-hand quotes from Remington seem to indicate that it's OK. Um... er... not for me, thanks. So, perhaps some commercial loading are usable. But which ones? This one? That one? Are you certain? How do you know? Call me a coward, but I'd just as soon not damage my rifle or myself.)
Suppose surplus M2 Ball is no longer available, and garden variety commercial stuff's all you can get. (That's assuming that the Hornady and Federal loadings are unavailable or not desired for one reason or another.) Now what? OK, here's the "but" part from above, phrased as an often-posed question:
"...I have heard there is a device that can be installed that allows you to shoot commercial ammunition without fear of harming the operating rod. What is it?"
There are two different but very similar devices -- the common (and incorrect) term is "adjustable gas plug" or "[adjustable] gas nut" -- which allow the safe firing of commercial .30-'06 ammunition in the M1. (I've been given to understand that 180-grain bullets are about as heavy as you want to go, but that's another subject.) Anyway, one of the devices is made by Schuster; the other, by McCann. Both are designed to replace the gas cylinder lock screw at the M1's muzzle end and to control the amount of gas which impinges on the operating rod piston when the rifle is fired. (For what it's worth, they both vent gas; there's no change in cylinder volume. Yes, I know what the catalog says; it's in error. The volume of gas doesn't change; its pressure does.) Also note that once you install one of these, you are no longer shooting a "box stock, as-issued" rifle.
Which is better? Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice. There are a couple of posts about these devices at TheHighRoad.org
[[[ Garand adjustable gas plugs: McCann or Schuster? - THR ]]]
responding to a question about their relative merits.
Here are those posts, just in case that forum goes belly up:
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January 24, 2008, 09:54 PM #2
dmazur Member
I have both.
Both perform the same job, so there really isn't a functional reason to choose one over the other.
The Schuster has an adjustable setscrew that approaches a "seat". The closer it's set, the smaller the effective opening. There is another set screw to lock the first one into position, once your action functions correctly.
The McCann has a series of insert screws with orifices. Starting with the largest orifice, swap the inserts until the action functions correctly, then tighten it up and it's secure. You have to keep track of the other insert screws if you ever plan to change loads.
I guess I prefer the McCann, as I can take it apart for cleaning and reassemble it without worrying about losing the setting. You can look through the orifice and verify that it is actually still a hole (!) This is really not possible with the Schuster. Minor point, I'll admit.
Quality of steel and machining in both seems equal. Just two different designs.
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January 25, 2008, 12:04 AM #3
Gator Member
I have a Schuster, and I like it, but I'm sure I'd be happy with a McCann too. I picked the Schuster because it only has two parts....I'm sure I'd never be able to find the extra McCann orifices if I needed them.
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Here are the McCann Industries and Schuster Manufacturing web sites; information as of January 23, 2011:
[[[ McCann Industries - Adjustable Gas System Garand ]]]
($44.95 is online price shown)
-and-
[[[ http://www.schustermfg.com/ ]]]
(No price shown; inquire by telephone or eMail)
While it appears that McCann will, and Schuster may, sell direct, you might prefer another supplier. Here are three sources; there are undoubtedly others, but I've done business with all three of these outfits. Availability and prices (not including postage / shipping) are as of January 23, 2011:
Brownells - World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools
M1 GARAND ADJUSTABLE GAS SYSTEM by Mc Cann -- $40.00
[[[ McCann Device ]]]
M1 GARAND ADJUSTABLE GAS SYSTEM by Schuster -- $39.35
[[[ Schuster Device ]]]
-- or --
MidwayUSA — Shooting Supplies, Reloading, Gunsmithing, Hunting, Ammunition, Gun Parts & Rifle Scopes
M1 GARAND ADJUSTABLE GAS SYSTEM by Schuster -- $35.99 (two styles)
[[[ Schuster]]]
-- or --
Fulton Armory -- Everything for the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M14/M1A and AR Type Rifles
GAS CYLINDER PLUG SYSTEM, ADJUSTABLE at Fulton Armory (looks like Schuster) -- $34.95
[[[ Gas Cylinder Plug System, Adjustable ]]]
GAS CYLINDER PLUG SYSTEM WITH INTERCHANGEABLE ADJUSTABLE JETS (looks like McCann) -- $44.95
[[[ Gas Cylinder Plug System, w/Interchangeable Jets]]]
All these devices come with full instructions, so there's no need to rehearse ‘em here. And no, I have no fiduciary interest in any of these companies.
There are those who will shriek to the Heavens (again, usually in ALL BOLD CAPS) that these things are too bloody expensive! Well, OK, I guess. From the standpoint of cost, however, the most expensive cited product -- the McCann (?) from Fulton Armory -- costs something like 1/11th (9.1%) the cost of the Civilian Marksmanship Program's (CMP) lowest priced M1 rifle. (The Field Grade SAs and HRAs are listed at $495 plus shipping as of January 23, 2011. See here: [[[ M1 Garand Sales ]]] ) I should think that the adjustable gas plug constitutes mighty cheap insurance. (And, hey: you'd even be able to shoot that real crappy "Wolf" stuff, too. Shudder.)
I have been told that neither the McCann nor the Schuster device is allowed in the John C. Garand (JCG) matches sponsored by the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP), and the Schuster web site specifically states that it is not legal for "as-issued" competition. I won't warrant that to be true, as I'm not competition oriented in any way, shape, form, or fashion. Contact the CMP folks at [[[ Competitions ]]] and check the rules yourself.
A third alternative, if you can't get M2 Ball or its commercial equivalent, and don't want to use the McCann or Schuster device, is to reload your own ammunition. I am not a reloader, so I'll not get into it; I know just about enough about reloading to be dangerous.
Ok now Im totally confused.
The problem with modern commercial ammo that isn't designed specifically for the M1 is that the burn rate of the powder isn't right for the M1 and that affects the timing of the system. Modern powders tend to burn faster. With the system out of time towards the fast side, you can bend your Op rod due to the gas cylinder being forced back before the bolt is unlocked. Some people suggest you get an adjustable gas valve such as the Schuster Adjustable Gas Plug. Venting some of the gas slows down the system a bit. The typical application is to open the plug so the system won't cycle at all then fire and manually cycle, repeating while adjusting the gas valve until the system will just eject and cycle.
Hope that helps.
Bob
It is pretty simple only use M2 ball or reload to M2 ball specs or buy one of the adjustiable gas plugs that are avaliable.
If you choose to shoot commercial 30-06 without the adjustiable plug you will eventually cause damage to your rifle and not be able to shoot it any more
Has anyone used American Eagle M1 Garand Ammo and is it any good?
A link to more or less the same discussion in the Ammunition Forum:
M1 Garand commercial ammo
Post #12 might be of particular use...
---------- Post added at 07:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:57 AM ----------
See Post #11 in the thread linked above, but also Post #4 and #7. Confusing, eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by ledge
Thanks. That's what I was asking for in the first place.
HXP from the CMP $.49/round
or if you aren't qualified to purchase from them.
http://www.ammogarand.com/3006ammo.html $.64/round
http://www.m1garandrifle.com/Garandparts.htm $.69/round
I am sure that there are many others. HXP is good ammo, non-corrosive, clean and accurate.
I ordered a Schuster gas cylinder lock screw from Midway and ended up sending it back (threading was filled with parkerization compund and unusable). Now I shoot HXP and my own (reduced) reloads.
I just ordered 240 rounds of HXP form CMP, is that brass reloadable?
It is. I will let somebody else talk about removing the military crimp. I still have plenty of Winchester brass; so that is what I use for reloading. I save my HXP brass, though. That Winchester won't last forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by ledge
There are several mechanical devices to remove crimp. After sizing I use a Dillon primer pocket swager. They are also made by RCBS and that one goes into the press that you will also need to reload in the first place. Just ask where you buy your reloading stuff for a primer pocket swager and they will show you something useable.
In resposnse to Ledge's question if American Eagle M1 ammo is any good, I cannot say whether or not it is, I can only offer my opinion. I have a recently made Springfield Armory M1 Garand and I shoot American Eagle's M1 ammo with it. When I am unable to get it, I have a Schuster Adjustable Gas System and shoot 150 grain commercial 30.06 with it. I have been happy with both. I typically shoot targets set 100 to 200 yards out and get fairly tight groups given my 55 year old eyes.
Yes, but I think its expensive at almost $1 a round. HXP from the CMP is my first choice, Reloading is my second. Ive used Federal 150 grain with no problem, but anything larger I would advise an adjustable gas plug.Quote:
Originally Posted by ledge
"Reloading For The M1 Rifle" by John R. Clarke in the March 1986 American Rifleman has a wealth of information you need for M1 reloads. (Available for around $10 on line)
Reloading for the M1.............
http://web.archive.org/web/200006200...rpo/M1load.htm
Aloha, Mark