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Does anybody know the serial number block that Charnwood used on their Enforcer builds? The only info I could find on this form was posted by "Simon". He confirmed Enforcer 684 was Charnwood assembled. I'm looking for the first known Charnwood build SN as well as the last. I would then assume that the difference would be the number of Enforcers put together by Charnwood Ordnance. Any info appreciated. Ron
From the original sales ledgers there are big 'gaps' in the issuing of serial numbers.
The ledger shows numbers 1 to 767 and where they were sold by Enfield the Police Force, issue/sold date and advice note / invoice number are shown.
Speculation but it may help :
I believe that the actions were not used in sequence, my feeling is that they just took one 'off the shelf' and built an Enforcer to order - this may explain why there can be "100s" difference in serial number for rifles sold / shipped on the same date.
Example - nothing is shown for serial numbers 570 - 600 but then 601 - 630 were sold by Enfield. 631 - 643 are not listed (except 633 which was sold to Bangkok Police)
690-696 were not sold by Enfield.
There are other big 'gaps' but 762 is the last known built by Enfield and was sold to Bangkok Police.
I believe that all of the 'missing numbers' were sold off at the end of the contract to Charnwood etc. (Not only Charnwood - There were others who purchased them as well)
Out of the 767 actions built, 9 were scrapped by Enfield, 1 went to H&K Germany, 2 went to Radway Green and a total of 134 are listed as 'not being sold by Enfield.
It is known (there are several examples) that towards the 'end' there were both Longbranch and Savage actions used to build Enforcers.
Example : Enforcer 706 was built on a 55LXXXX Longbranch action.
Are you sure about Lithgow they only made SMLE actions not No4s
Many thanks - stupid mistake and one that I've corrected other folks on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bindi2
Should read - Longbranch - I've corrected it above.
I'm a bit confused about the 'charnwood assembled' enforcers. They're not my forte of course but one of the chaps at Warminster was on the Home Office working party regarding the Police need for a sniping rifle and he's never heard of them (Charnwood) being what he calls an 'authorised signatory' regarding the issue or supply of Enforcers. Now he's confused. He says that the Police contract meant work for Enfield and at the time, the Military withdrew their old No4T's that were on loan to the Police because what they needed was an accurate 'good shot' rifle as opposed to 'sniper' rifles
Were the Charnwood enforcers just made up afterwards from Enfield left-over parts or were they contractors to the Home Office/Police. Are they real/true enforcers issued and supplied to the Police? Any Enforcer experts out there.....................
Here's an old (and long) thread from 2009 where Charwood was referenced in some posts .. ;)
Factory converted No 4
Regards,
Doug
Peter - The 'official' Police issued Enforcers were built / assembled by Parker Hale & Enfield. I have a copy of the original sales ledgers showing which serial numbers were assembled / sold by Enfield.
At the end of the contract there were a number of actions, barrels & bits left over that were never assembled. These parts were sold off to the highest bidders.
The two main purchasers of these 'bits' were Charnwood Ordnance and an RFD in the Durham area (cannot remember his name off hand).
Some of these rifles were assembled and sold as 'Enforcers' which they of course are, but they are not 'issued' Enforcers. (A bit like that US company that bought up all the Lithgow bits and pieces, assembled them and sold them as 'new' Lithgows)
I know the RFD who purchased the business of the RFD in Durham, when he opened the store-room he found loads of Enforcer bits and pieces with enough to build at least 12 complete Enforcers. He has now sold much of these but still does have some bits and pieces (the odd action, forends etc)
Thanks AdeE. He reads the forum when it's on at work and wondered about them and the Charnwood connection - but all clear now. Are they still officially 'Enforcers' and a collectable item or just another repro..... if that's the right word to use!
Thanks again
DPL,
I can remember talking to Tony at Charnwood when they were selling everything off in about 1998. He stated quite clearly that they had bought a quantity of incomplete Enforcers & parts from British Aerospace. Indeed NoBS Dave & I bought a couple just to get the barrels for L42's!! I still have a receiver that was rendered unserviceable as the milling of the sidewall to remove all original markings was so deep it cut through into the bolt locking lug recess. There is a horizontal hole in the receiver where it has gone through. In spite of this the Enforcer engraving has been applied. I'll look out the number & post it on the forum later.
ATB
I greatly appreciate the feedback. The information presented clears up some questions. Since the Enfield lock records have survived it validates the Enforcer builds. Enfield assembled until the early 1980's; components were sold off to Charnwood Ordnance and the former owner of Barbican Armoury in soth Durham. Anybody know of any other purchasers as I'm assuming these surplused lots went in larger packages.
Interestingly Roger Payne purchased a couple for barrels. Where these 4 groove hammer forged by any chance. I'm still looking for barrel markings if the information is out there.
Ron
It raises the question that among the collecting fraternity, are these Enforcers, with a pedigree (or lack of, depending on your point of view....) like that, real enforcers or just, er................ what's the word I'm looking for............... But you get my drift. Something akin to having a Ford Mustang assembled from bits by a garage. Maybe that's a bit unkind but you know where I'm coming from.
I feel myself digging a hole here so I'd better quit!
Theres usually an obvious difference between a genuine factory rifle and something thats been assembled elsewhere - not least because a factory rifle has of course been through a rigorous inspection process. Given that there is also a blurring between "elsewhere assembled" Enforcers and a series of reasonably accurate fakes that are also in circulation, I'd never advise anyone to pay the full premium price unless its a 100% genuine example. Better to spend about 15% of the price on an identical-yet-gunsmith-built Enforcer clone, and save the 85% balance for a nice specimen of something else (e.g. you can get a decent No1 MkV and still have change for another old smellie...).Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
So what enforcer fakes have people seen on the market then? Have they been really obvious or only fakes to a select few?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbox
Ron,
IIRC all of the barrelled actions we saw had the later chordally rifled barrels with the step in the middle. It's a long time ago now but I can't remember seeing any early mfr 'snake skin' barrels. The unserviceable receiver which I unbreeched for the tube & which I mentioned above, is no 674 & is dated '80.
ATB
Roger. Thanks for the quick response. The two I've seen have the stepped barrel and has been lathe turned. I'm very interested in acquiring one of these and would trade a "Snake Skin" hammer forged barrel or buy outright. Thanks, Ron
I,ll have all the No1 Mk V,s please.:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbox
If its any use, when I was trying to track down the origins of a put together fake by the late Chris barber.
I stumbled upon a lot of info which went off in all tangents, but regarding the Enforcers scopes "Pecar" a lot of these were purchased by a guy in Scotland. (either it was complete scopes or parts am not sure, even the Scotland part I am going by memory, which is not that good these days)
An interesting question, and one that we had in a philosophy class in college some time ago. If a ship were rebuilt one piece at a time, and later, a ship was constructed of the "old" materials, would it be the original ship?
In my mind, only the 1-767 rifles are original. All others are built up from spares, by 'smiths that didn't get paid by Enfield. While the built ups by someone are in a better class than a clone, it's still not original. Like Peter said, it's like building a Shelby Cobra in the garage. It may be expensive, and may run like a scalded dog, but it's not a Shelby.
Sadly Ron, all this was some years ago. I took the barrel off the duff receiver & used it on another (L42) restoration project. I think Dave still has his barrel as a spare against future need for one of his L42's. In fact I am always on the look out for these barrels myself, but they've gone all the way from unsaleable to unobtainable over the last ten to fisteen years!
I'm hardly in the market for an Enforcer, although I've bought & sold a few over the years, but concerning the argument over whether to buy a Charnwood assembled one or not: I would suggest it all comes down to the price asked. Granted a 'Charnwood' Enforcer is not an issued rifle, but it is built from genuine parts & so in my view is superior (assuming the assembly job has been done correctly), to an out & out clone. If the seller is asking full house prices then pass it by, but if the price is reasonable........
ATB
Ah, that is a good question - what is a reasonable price for an Enforcer? I bought one earlier this year for what I thought was a very reasonable price (I had it confirmed as a police-issued Enforcer) but, even after several months of research, I had no idea how much such a rifle should cost in the US. I ended up selling it to help pay for medical care for my pregnant wife (a new little spinecracker is due any day now, and that is part of the reaon why I'm selling my 1941 Long Branch - eek!). I know that they do not have the same aura about them as military Lee-Enfield sniper rifles (as far as I know, Enforcers have only been used "in action" against the occasional annoyed bovine), but they do have rarity value and have their own place in the Lee-Enfield story. They are also great fun to shoot. I cannot even hazard a guess regarding how much I would pay for a Charnwood Enforcer.
Was stalling the Motorcycle Museum arms show here in Brum yesterday (I think at the time of posting it is now just about yesterday!), & spoke to both Tony & Rob Hallam re to clarify the Charnwood Enforcer situation. They confirmed that they bought a mixed batch of gear from British Aerocpace & whilst they couldn't remember exactly how many Enforcers (or major parts thereof) there were in the batch, they were in varying states of assembly; the majority being in barrelled action form. These simply require the addition of the woodwork & furniture, although some were receivers that had not been barrelled up. Sounds as though there was a bit of everything.......unsurprisingly, really.
ATB
On the subject of Pecar Enforcer 'scopes,Bob Dunkley was selling off numerous examples when he started off his firearms dealership business in Redcar Teesside a good few years ago now. They were all boxed but from the hand written numbers on the sides of the boxes 'scopes and boxes had been swapped about a bit. I seem to recall he had a fair number. I bought Pecar 'scope No. 301 for a Charnwood assembled Enforcer no 687 bought separately from Barbican Armoury which I still have (and intend to keep). Presumably these 'scopes were from Enforcers which had been scrapped. Interestingly they all had the blueing worn off from one side in the same place .
---------- Post added at 08:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 PM ----------
Forgot to mention, they were all 4 x10 magnification.
Apologies accidental post
pm sent to westend