I have observed with D73 actions the decimal in "7.62" is justified at the top of the numbering, D76 and D80 actions the decimal is justified at the bottom of "7.62".
Consistent? Yes/No?
Might be yesterday's newpaper, I just noticed...
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I have observed with D73 actions the decimal in "7.62" is justified at the top of the numbering, D76 and D80 actions the decimal is justified at the bottom of "7.62".
Consistent? Yes/No?
Might be yesterday's newpaper, I just noticed...
On mine, #665, the decimal point is lower.
How was this engraving done? - I think I also have a D & C Enforcer - I also notice that two differing types of "3" have been used - possible? - why?
questions questions
John
As one who has had to load up the letter plate on an old TH pantograph engraver many times, one identical to those used at Enfield, it just depends upon whoever loads the font into the engraving machine on that day.
Reading this thread I'm minded to ask whether D&C DID in fact guillotine their rifles but some wag, knowing this, has 'resurrected' the numbers, knowing the originals will never emerge. Just a thought..................
That is of course possible but I tend more towards the fact that the Police do not know what happened to them, or, perhaps more worrying, that they are deliberately misleading the public.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Here are the relevant answers from Devon & Cornwall Police :
4) By what method where any Enfield Enforcer rifles disposed of ? (i.e. destroyed, sold to the civilian market etc.)
Apart from the one remaining Enforcer mentioned in response to question 2, all were destroyed by Force guillotine as surplus stock.
5) What were the serial numbers of any Enfield Enforcer rifles that were destroyed?
The only records that could be located are details of the last four Enforcers to be destroyed as in question 4 above. In November 2004, serial No's 124, 139, 670 and 269 were destroyed by guillotine.
What leads me to believe that they actually have no idea what happened to them.
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Below is the answers to the same questions by the Sussex Police :
"However, upon speaking with the Force Armourer, he believes the weapon issued to police forces was in fact the Envoy (not Enforcer) made by the Small Arms Factory Enfield. Weapons held would have been destroyed as we are not permitted to sell police weapons to the public".
In fact the Enfield sale ledgers show that in fact Sussex Police purchased 8 Enforcers.
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The Met Police were a little more devious with their reply :
"Members of the criminal fraternity, who have requisite firearms knowledge, could use the information to 'clone' a police firearm. This could then be distributed within criminal gangs and used for committing serious armed offences. This could jeopardise the health and safety, or indeed the lives, of innocent members of the community and complicate any subsequent investigation.
Details of telescopic sights would reveal the tactical capability of that weapon".
Does it really matter what the tactical capability was of the Enforcer Scope 30 years after it was discontinued ?
Peter Laidler is obviously of the same mind as the 'Criminal Fraternity'
I have some of the wood from two of those rifles.... which would indicate that (a) D&C did indeed scrap the rifles, so, possibly, (b) therefore they probably did scrap the other unlisted rifles, which would mean that, (c) some Enforcers have been cloned from salvaged numbered parts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
What actually happened to the rifles which were 'guillotined'? I've no idea what this device is in gunsmithery terms but what would have happened to the rifles? Actions completely mashed/chopped up or something else?
I've always assumed that usable parts (woodwork, sights etc) would be removed and the barrel, action & bolt (FAC items) were literally guillotined or gas-axedQuote:
Originally Posted by PrinzEugen
And presumably someone just 'disposed' of the non FAC remains........... Ready for the inevitable resurrection that we now see. If you did the same with a car, it'd be called 'ringing' and you'd be in the slammer
Who would of thought they would fake Enforcers, I bought my Enforcer years ago. I wanted an Envoy but the Enforcer was cheaper.
The London Armoury at the time had a whole rack of them, from memory they were £250 ea without the scope & £300 ea with scopes and a bit more if you wanted the Harris Bipod as well.
The Enfield Gunsight Company had spare stock sets and quite a few of the Pecar scopes a few years back.
One of the guys in my club who is a retired Met police Firearms officer had several of their scopes, he was selling them privately in the club.
It might be the bleedin' obvious Simon P, but are you an MG fan/owner? MGCC or MGOC?
MGOC, One 1971 MGB & one 1979 MGB GT. Did have a Speedwell racing Austin Healey Sprite (midget) as well. The GT is good for shooting as the rifles fit in the back. Are you into MGs as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I can probably help with how the Police destroy weapons. My Dad used to have to take confiscated and surrenderd weapons to Penrith Police Head Quarters for Guilotining. They removed any wood work, and then just chopped the rest as is. Sometimes Bolts and mags were removed to make it easier to get the wood off etc. Other than that, there was no further stripping or salvaging of parts. The removed wood was then put into a wood burner. Sad I know, my Dad told me of all sorts of historical weapons being destroyed, however, some of the bobbies were a bit more savvy and if a weapon of intrest was being surrenderd, the savvier desk Bobbies would call intrested and Licenced parties and if the surrenderer was happy to give it to a new owner (Usually in exchange for a bit of pocket money) then a deal was done, saving it from the chop.
He also told me of Deacs (Dewats), air guns and toy guns being handed in, and once they were handed over, thats it, it had to be destroyed.
I was told recently by a dealer, that the Police don't destroy weapons anymore, but PAY to have them destroyed, and it costs £10 a weapon! He went on to tell me that when they have these Knife amnesties etc, they can't afford to have them destroyed so sell them off! And thats how this dealer buys some of his stock.
We share the old Admiralty building next to our large engineering workshops near Earls Court with the Met Police, we used to get frequent visits from them and the British Transport Police to destroy all manner of weapons including their faulty extending batons & handcuffs, we had to countersign there paperwork confirimg destruction.
These weaons were either cut with the gas torch or put under the blacksmiths hammer.
This was all done free of charge.
We even used to melt down fake £1 coins for them as well.
The only weapons they never brought in for destruction were official Police weapons.
This gets interestinger and interestinger :madsmile:
Three threads running on this - or is it 4? - a bit like D & C's Enforcers :help:
Alan - how many Enforcers did D & C take delivery of please?
They recorded the numbers of 4 destroyed (124, 139, 670, 269)
You have 6 currently in circulation - plus possibly mine :dunno:
Plus 'all the rest' that were destroyed :nono:
Looks to me as if somone(s) has been a naughty boy or a silly boy? - policeman or joe public?
And just one final observation - why an earth would someone fake an Enforcer and not a 4T? - when you look at the differing values?
John
D&C Police received 32 Enforcers (in third place behing the MET & Manchester Police)
Apart from convincing engraving, Enforcers are very easy to build: all of the component parts are extremely common items from the civilian gun trade or - these days - eBay. 4(T)s require quite a bit more attention to detail, and genuine military parts are now rare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnr527
A gunsmith-built 7.62mm Enfield target rifle that is perhaps 90% identical to an Enforcer can often be bought at auction in UK for £30-100 (sadly, the decline of UK shooting sports means most "first generation" target rifles are only worth scrap/component value). A few screw-on bits and a bit of engraving and it can be worth c.£1,400 as an Enforcer...
I posted more pics of my Enforcer in another thread, perhaps we could get some other pics of the side engraving on other Enforcers to compare by serial numbering series and also by build date? I would HATE to find out mine is a fake, but if it is, better to find out here. There must also be some tells elsewhere on the rifles.
1st pic Ex Devon & Cornwall No665Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal O'Peridol
2nd pic Ex Hong Kong Police No669
3rd Pic Charnwood assembled 'Bitsa' No684
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...enforcer-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...02/No669-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0592-1.jpg
Heres a pic of ex-D&C 644 issued in August 1982, apart from fitting a new PH5E4 and an extractor claw, I have not had a need to take the wood off to have a look at the markings, the engraving on the charnwood 684 looks almost Identical to mine !:yikes: Id hate to find mine was a fake:crying:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal O'Peridol
Your engraving looks like the real McCoy to me andya. Deep, clean and even. Unlike the engraving on 684....... deep and shallow, not what I'd call clean cut or even even! I don't know anything about Enfofcers but I know what factory engraving looks like, having seen one or two L42's. And it's, er........... deep, clean and even. Just my thoughts
That’s reassuring Peter thank you. It is worrying when the word fake gets banded around but I suppose they aren’t fake at all just produced later out of original parts by an alternative firm. I am not an armourer but I know that when assembling rifles of any type a certain amount of personal skill and experience is needed and they are not just simply a ‘bolt together’ affair. So my next questions are:
How good were the Charnwood Armourers? If they were up to speed and should the new old stock bitsas simply be considered a later production run not necessarily inferior, after all as I understand it they were made from original parts?
Either way the Charnwood version must be in relatively small numbers and therefore very collectable in their own right?